Farmer's protest march in Dublin

[Purple]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Yes but then you are in a position where instead of a large number of small farms, you end up with a small number of factory outfits - the farming equivalents of Dunnes Stores & Larry Goodman.

I don't know how you can reconcile this with your ideal of farmers selling their own products in local markets.

The experience in the UK has been that the trends in this direction have been at the expense of food safety, animal welfare and public confidence in the product.

The arguement that we should continue to subsidise a sector that it not viable in it's current form because our government is crap at regulation does not really stack up.

 

[Jack The Lad]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Purple, I totaly agree with your location description!


Seriously though. The last few anti-agri arguments here are all over the place. I'd like to address two of them.

1 - A farmer has the skill and experience to walk in to a field and produce food from it. For 99.9% of farmers that is an all consuming, 24/7 job... there isn't time to package, market and sell the food as well. There just isn't. It's heavy, tiring labour. There was a time, maybe when everyone in the family could chip in and help, and some produce was sold from the farm gate, eggs, and butter and the like. But now, because farm income is so poor, spouses and sons and daughters are working in different industries, even part-time employees are impossible to find, and so most farmers farm alone. The fortunate few who can sell their own produce are exceptional, or farm in exceptional circumstances.

2 - It would cost the average Irish farmer a minimum of €2,000,000 to scale up to the minimum NZ size farm, and that's before stocking it. Also Irish climate and Dept Agriculture regulations means stock has to be housed for about 5 months every year, a cost that NZ farmers do not have to consider. And speaking of the Department of Agriculture, NZ farmers would start a civil war if they had to deal with the absolutely crazy red-tape and regulations currently strangling their Irish counterparts. Up-scaling is just not going to happen. Forget it.

 

[Purple]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Purple, I totaly agree with your location description!

Leave me alone, I like it here with my blue arsed flying penguins...

By the way I think farming in Ireland is a difficult job. I don't agree with those who say they have it easy. But the reality is that for most farmers their traditional way of life is just not viable. This is painful to face up to but no less true for that. The only thing that keeps them on the land is an international trade structure which, in my opinion, is evil. I just don't think that anything can justify the suffering we are causing by restricting capitalism in this way. The up-side of Globalisation is that it allows poor economies to develop. This can take years and can cause huge upheavals and much pain in the transitional period but what we are inflicting on farmers in the developing world in a kind of eternal limbo. They have the bare faced coldness of capitalism with the protectionism and barriers of socialism holding them in place forever. Nothing we seek to hold onto here is worth that price.

Please don’t think I don’t know what that is like; I watched my grandfather’s business fall apart due to imports from developing economies. I was only a child but it stuck with me. At some stage in the future my own business may well be destroyed by Chinese (or other) competition but I would honestly rather that than have my sustainability dependant on keeping others held in poverty and misery because of unjust protectionist trade barriers.

 

[Jack The Lad]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Ok. Have to say, I really admire you for your principles, and for sticking to them. And I understand where you are comming from. I've actualy been to parts of the third world, and seen the devestating poverty, and spoken with people who had nothing. It's a shocking and humbling experience, one I will never forget. If I believed for one moment that eliminating subsidies and throwing the trade doors open would help them then I would have to say that my conscience would not allow me to continue as a farmer under current conditions.

So why am I arguing from the opposite corner? I know from the bitter experience of selling my produce to the intermediaries of the food industry that abolishing the CAP will have little or no impact on third world farmers profits. The only people who will profit are the big players, the multinationals, the powerful. There will be no trickle-down. The truth is that imperfect as it is, the EU system at least ensures that good, healthy, safe food is produced, and can be done so without driving the farming community into poverty, and the ultimate benefit is that pretty much everyone can afford to buy food for themselves and their families.

In the comming years, with the many contrary forces currently at play (oil, global warming, food security) the ideal situation would be a world in which all farmers globally are subsidised, in some way, at least enough to keep them in business, and to keep a guarantee of food in everyones bowl, and to ensure that food is grown within a reasonable distance of it's ultimate destination. I genuinely fear that if Europe's farmers are driven from their farms, then the only result will be more people on the poverty line, insufficient global food supplies, more hungry people, greater unrest. It will be a lose/lose outcome. The only beneficiaries will be the Tesco's and Monsanto's of the world.

 

[Purple]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

The problem is not that food in the EU would be more expensive it is that at the moment EU food is cheaper in Africa than African food. We use our economic might to force their door open to our subsidised produce while at the same time we do not allow their produce in. That is what traps them in a poverty cycle, that is what is so unjust. As long as the CAP is in place there is no way of stopping this from happening since our subsidies artificially deflate the selling price of the produce.

Anyway, I'm meant to be working (and keeping the Yanks happy)

 

[MOB]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

"As long as the CAP is in place there is no way of stopping this from happening since our subsidies artificially deflate the selling price of the produce."

It is a little more nuanced than that. We did have subsidies which were directly linked to production; This encouraged overproduction and the creation of food mountains. Decoupling is now the order of the day. A farmer gets a subsidy which is not in any way related to his production level. His decision to produce milk or grain or whatever is now based solely on the market for his produce. It is true that the EU is a protected market, but it is no longer the case (or certainly it is much less the case) that we have through subsidies caused the overproduction of food with the consequent result of dumping it below cost abroad. Dairy farmers are already calling for an end to milk quota and the entitlement to compete on the world market. The CAP is moving in the right direction.

 

[Purple]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

"As long as the CAP is in place there is no way of stopping this from happening since our subsidies artificially deflate the selling price of the produce."

It is a little more nuanced than that. We did have subsidies which were directly linked to production; This encouraged overproduction and the creation of food mountains. Decoupling is now the order of the day. A farmer gets a subsidy which is not in any way related to his production level. His decision to produce milk or grain or whatever is now based solely on the market for his produce. It is true that the EU is a protected market, but it is no longer the case (or certainly it is much less the case) that we have through subsidies caused the overproduction of food with the consequent result of dumping it below cost abroad. Dairy farmers are already calling for an end to milk quota and the entitlement to compete on the world market. The CAP is moving in the right direction.

I agree that moves have been made in the right direction (pushed for by the Americans at the GATT talks) but the barriers to entry are still there and so are the deflationary subsidies (though the oversupply is, for the most part, gone).

 

[room305]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

From an environment point of view - we need to grow food locally.

I don't buy this. Is it really that bad for the environment if green beans are farmed manually in Kenya and then packed by the tonne onto a cargo plane to be transported to the EU market? Compared with say the option of growing those same beans under electric lights in a heated glass house in Ireland and transporting them by truck to the local Tesco?

Left to the market we'd get low quality mass produced stuff that is not traceable.

Right, because without the CAP scheme every Michelin restaurant in the country would suddenly say "Yeah, sure we just feed them any aul' crap, we wouldn't care if we found the cow dead behind the dumpster two weeks ago, we'll mince it up and serve it - sure without the subsidies nobody has any tastebuds anymore ..."

...do you really fancy the idea of eating a piece of lettuce that has travelled thousands of miles to get to your plate as opposed to one that was grown in Rush?

So if I understand your point here, you are saying that you prefer locally sourced produce but are not convinced everybody else does (the response on this thread would suggest otherwise) and as a consequence are worried the market will disappear unless the government intervenes to maintain it. Isn't this just Marxist socialism applied to food?

 

[Jack The Lad]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

I don't buy this. Is it really that bad for the environment if green beans are farmed manually in Kenya and then packed by the tonne onto a cargo plane to be transported to the EU market?

... Yes. That would be a disaster. Unless you are proposing that we all switch to a permanent diet of green beans, there would be thousands of tonnes of every imaginable food flying on planes overhead constantly. Every minute, every hour, every day. It would be environmental suicide, among other things, and it beggars belief that you would suggest otherwise!

 

[room305]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

... Yes. That would be a disaster. Unless you are proposing that we all switch to a permanent diet of green beans, there would be thousands of tonnes of every imaginable food flying on planes overhead constantly. Every minute, every hour, every day. It would be environmental suicide, among other things, and it beggars belief that you would suggest otherwise!

Do you have a problem with Irish farmers exporting produce to other countries?

 

[Jack The Lad]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

That's a good question.

I haven't got the exact figures but in general the bulk of Irish grown food is exported to Great Britain, and then a smaller portion to Europe. There would be some beef and lamb exports to the middle east, and Russia but although it's an important outlet, it's only a percentage. So Irish food exports do create an additional carbon footprint, without a doubt.

In my previous post I was referring to wholesale trans-global movement of food covering thousands of miles, and weeks of storage from other continents to Europe. Specifically beef from Brazil, lamb and dairy produce from New Zealand, grain from the US. That's thousands of miles, by sea and air, on a constant basis, and I would imagine if you were to compare the carbon output of that projected scenario to that of current Irish exports there would be a radical difference.

 

[room305]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

That's a good question.

I haven't got the exact figures but in general the bulk of Irish grown food is exported to Great Britain, and then a smaller portion to Europe. There would be some beef and lamb exports to the middle east, and Russia but although it's an important outlet, it's only a percentage. So Irish food exports do create an additional carbon footprint, without a doubt.

In my previous post I was referring to wholesale trans-global movement of food covering thousands of miles, and weeks of storage from other continents to Europe. Specifically beef from Brazil, lamb and dairy produce from New Zealand, grain from the US. That's thousands of miles, by sea and air, on a constant basis, and I would imagine if you were to compare the carbon output of that projected scenario to that of current Irish exports there would be a radical difference.

Just because something travels several thousand miles to get to a location doesn't mean it has a higher carbon footprint. Hence the example of beans from Kenya. Despite travelling by air to get here, they have a lower carbon footprint than locally sourced beans.

Regardless, I think the carbon footprint argument is poor justification for condemning millions to poverty.

France is the largest recipient of CAP subsidies and over 80% of French CAP payments go to French agribusiness companies. CAP is not necessarily payments to farmers.

In 2005 Oxfam calculated that there were over 1 billion on this planet living on less than $1 a day. CAP payments for the average cow came to $2.62 a head in 2003. More money than half the world's population live on.

How can this madness be justified?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/oct/17/eu.internationalaidanddevelopment

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Just because something travels several thousand miles to get to a location doesn't mean it has a higher carbon footprint. Hence the example of beans from Kenya. Despite travelling by air to get here, they have a lower carbon footprint than locally sourced beans.

According to Saturday's FT, the whole carbon footprint debate is starting to become a thing of the past anyway. Its now a year since the Stern Report was published and it is already largely forgotten. The twin global problems of the credit crunch and the food supply crisis are now concentrating policymakers' minds at the expense of a climate change problem that may or may not transpire in several decades time.

Regardless, I think the carbon footprint argument is poor justification for condemning millions to poverty.

I agree

CAP is not necessarily payments to farmers.

I agree. The biggest beneficiary of CAP payments in the UK is Her Majesty and her family. The biggest beneficiary in Ireland is Larry Goodman.

In 2005 Oxfam calculated that there were over 1 billion on this planet living on less than $1 a day. CAP payments for the average cow came to $2.62 a head in 2003. More money than half the world's population live on.

How can this madness be justified?

The article say that "the comparison has been a cause of outrage" but imho it is absolutely bogus. You could use the same logic to decry almost any aspect of Western social or economic behaviour - for example the $x billion spent on alcohol/cosmetics/kids sweets/haircuts/smug liberal newspapers/dieting in the EU & US every year. Reminds me of the old whinge that the Catholic Church's policies on contraception are to blame for the AIDS crisis in Africa - ignoring the facts (1) that most Africans are Muslims; and (2) Islamic law does not approve of artificial contraception.

 

[diarmuidc]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Regardless, I think the carbon footprint argument is poor justification for condemning millions to poverty.

Depends. If you don't believe what the IPCC is currently forecasting, then that's a fair position to take. However if you agree with the IPCC fourth report, then ignoring the carbon footprint argument, you are condemning future millions to death, not to mention poverty.

 

[room305]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Depends. If you don't believe what the IPCC is currently forecasting, then that's a fair position to take. However if you agree with the IPCC fourth report, then ignoring the carbon footprint argument, you are condemning future millions to death, not to mention poverty.

If you allow the millions of oppressed to industrialise now then they will be in a far better position to deal with the implications of global warming in fifty years time.

Alternatively you can keep people in poverty, reduce carbon emissions and hope the IPCC are correct in their assertions.

I know which option I'd prefer if I lived in the third world.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

If you allow the millions of oppressed to industrialise now then they will be in a far better position to deal with the implications of global warming in fifty years time.

Alternatively you can keep people in poverty, reduce carbon emissions and hope the IPCC are correct in their assertions.

I know which option I'd prefer if I lived in the third world.

The other point is that world incomes have tended to grow with time. Places that were backward and poor have in time become progressive and rich. Bjorn Lomborg makes the point that if Bangladesh, for example, is allowed to industrialise and grow, it should have plenty of resources, in 50-100 years time, to cope with the long-term effects (if any) of climate change, just as the Netherlands is rich enough now to cope with the fact that much of their country is below sea level and they need elaborate systems to protect against flooding. If its development is curtailed now, then it will be hapless in the face of any adversity in the long-term.

 

[Purple]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

The article say that "the comparison has been a cause of outrage" but imho it is absolutely bogus. You could use the same logic to decry almost any aspect of Western social or economic behaviour - for example the $x billion spent on alcohol/cosmetics/kids sweets/haircuts/smug liberal newspapers/dieting in the EU & US every year. Reminds me of the old whinge that the Catholic Church's policies on contraception are to blame for the AIDS crisis in Africa - ignoring the facts (1) that most Africans are Muslims; and (2) Islamic law does not approve of artificial contraception.

LOL I love the bit about the newspapers

 

[Jack The Lad]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Just because something travels several thousand miles to get to a location doesn't mean it has a higher carbon footprint. Hence the example of beans from Kenya. Despite travelling by air to get here, they have a lower carbon footprint than locally sourced beans.

That's something I wasn't aware of, and I'd be interested in knowing more. Can you elaborate, maybe provide a link or two with independent data to back it up?

Does the same apply to all locally sourced food?

What about staple foods, say potatoes, beef and cheese?

 

[Jack The Lad]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

France is the largest recipient of CAP subsidies and over 80% of French CAP payments go to French agribusiness companies. CAP is not necessarily payments to farmers.

Have to say that as a farmer I do think that huge payments going to agribusiness companies and the likes of L. Goodman and co. is taking it all too far. Unlike us, these guys can make profit without getting fully subsidised for every acre - economy of scale. There should be a sliding scale and/or cap on larger payments.

I agree with you on that point.

 

[Jack The Lad]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

In 2005 Oxfam calculated that there were over 1 billion on this planet living on less than $1 a day. CAP payments for the average cow came to $2.62 a head in 2003. More money than half the world's population live on.

$2.62 x 50 cows x 365 = $47,815

That's totaly wrong for starters. You could divide it by 4 or 5. Either that, or the Irish Dept. Agriculture has been seriously short-changing us!

And it's a silly comparison.

But it is outrageous that so many people are living on so little. We all have to take responsibility for that.