Farmer's protest march in Dublin

[room305]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

The article say that "the comparison has been a cause of outrage" but imho it is absolutely bogus. You could use the same logic to decry almost any aspect of Western social or economic behaviour - for example the $x billion spent on alcohol/cosmetics/kids sweets/haircuts/smug liberal newspapers/dieting in the EU & US every year. Reminds me of the old whinge that the Catholic Church's policies on contraception are to blame for the AIDS crisis in Africa - ignoring the facts (1) that most Africans are Muslims; and (2) Islamic law does not approve of artificial contraception.

$2.62 x 50 cows x 365 = $47,815

That's totaly wrong for starters. You could divide it by 4 or 5. Either that, or the Irish Dept. Agriculture has been seriously short-changing us!

And it's a silly comparison.

But it is outrageous that so many people are living on so little. We all have to take responsibility for that.

I agree that the link between the two is somewhat facetious and could easily be applied to anything people in the Western world spend money on. But it's still an enormous amount of money and impossible to justify.

I'm not sure how the figure is calculated and whether it takes into account the administrative overheads inherent in such a system. It's also listed as the average amount paid out per cow, so presumably some farmers receive more or less than this amount. Perhaps it is a miscalculation by Oxfam but I have heard similar figures used by Swedish economist Johan Norberg and the Globalisation Institute.

Johan Norbeg perhaps better illustrates the point when he says that a cow purchased in Argentina and flown first class to France for slaughter would cost the EU less than the payments a French cow receives under CAP.

Have to say that as a farmer I do think that huge payments going to agribusiness companies and the likes of L. Goodman and co. is taking it all too far. Unlike us, these guys can make profit without getting fully subsidised for every acre - economy of scale. There should be a sliding scale and/or cap on larger payments.

I agree with you on that point.

So you have to ask yourself if it is fair that small farmers should receive preferable treatment in this way, compared to any other small business that struggles against larger competition?

Not all Irish farmers will go out of business with the ending of the CAP, just some. I have relations who own a farm and they are not at all worried about the ending of CAP subsidies. Their attitude is that they sell a premium product, it is internationally recognised as such and people can and should be willing to pay for it as such.

That's something I wasn't aware of, and I'd be interested in knowing more. Can you elaborate, maybe provide a link or two with independent data to back it up?

Does the same apply to all locally sourced food?

What about staple foods, say potatoes, beef and cheese?

It's a complicated subject I'm sure but this might provide a start:



It's at this point I probably should admit that I don't really buy into the doom and gloom surrounding global warming.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=531783&postcount=5

 

[Jack The Lad]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

I have relations who own a farm and they are not at all worried about the ending of CAP subsidies. Their attitude is that they sell a premium product, it is internationally recognised as such and people can and should be willing to pay for it as such.

In an ideal world - yes, absolutely.

In the all too real world - it won't happen.

You can only sell a product at a price the market is willing to pay for it. The market is not willing to pay a premium price for premium food, or even a realistic price (based on the cost of getting it from zero to the shop shelf) for acceptable food. Hence, subsidisation.

 

[room305]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

You can only sell a product at a price the market is willing to pay for it. The market is not willing to pay a premium price for premium food, or even a realistic price (based on the cost of getting it from zero to the shop shelf) for acceptable food. Hence, subsidisation.

Really? Then you wouldn't imagine there'd be a market for this stuff then. It costs about €250 a kilo from an Irish butcher.

 

[Jack The Lad]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Yes, but would you eat it every day? Could you afford to? I couldn't. Pretty much everyone couldn't.

In Japan, Kobe beef is a delicacy. You bring it out for special occassions. It's beef champagne!

 

[room305]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Yes, but would you eat it every day? Could you afford to? I couldn't. Pretty much everyone couldn't.

In Japan, Kobe beef is a delicacy. You bring it out for special occassions. It's beef champagne!

I know but I was illustrating a point. Even with serious land scarcity, Japan is able to produce beef at a price the market is willing to pay. They do so by focusing on quality. Perhaps it is a point better served by pointing out that there is a ready market for €20 organic chickens.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

I know but I was illustrating a point. Even with serious land scarcity, Japan is able to produce beef at a price the market is willing to pay. They do so by focusing on quality. Perhaps it is a point better served by pointing out that there is a ready market for €20 organic chickens.

The question, as my old marketing lecturer used to say, is not "is there a gap in the market?" but "is there a market in the gap?". The Irish population is so small in relative terms that the Irish market for €20 organic chickens is tiny, and not sufficient to sustain any critical mass of suppliers outside a handful of specialists.

 

[room305]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

The Irish population is so small in relative terms that the Irish market for €20 organic chickens is tiny, and not sufficient to sustain any critical mass of suppliers outside a handful of specialists.

If Irish farmers are solely limiting themselves to supplying the Irish market then you may have isolated a large part of the problem. If they are making a premium product - which I believe they are when it comes to beef and diary - then they need to be thinking global.

Would you support a similar line of argument from Irish software developers (i.e. we're finding it tough to compete in the global market place, please give us loads of money and make it illegal for Irish companies to contact software development in India)?

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

If Irish farmers are solely limiting themselves to supplying the Irish market then you may have isolated a large part of the problem. If they are making a premium product - which I believe they are when it comes to beef and diary - then they need to be thinking global.

Would you support a similar line of argument from Irish software developers (i.e. we're finding it tough to compete in the global market place, please give us loads of money and make it illegal for Irish companies to contact software development in India)?

This line of argument is wrongheaded and pointless.

You previously answered your own question when you said

I have relations who own a farm and they are not at all worried about the ending of CAP subsidies. Their attitude is that they sell a premium product, it is internationally recognised as such and people can and should be willing to pay for it as such.

Good luck to you.

 

[room305]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

This line of argument is wrongheaded and pointless.

Care to explain why? I am making a genuine enquiry. Why do you consider subsidies for farmers to be perfectly reasonable but unconscionable for other industries?

 

[joe sod]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Farmers complaining that getting 85% of their income paid by the taxpayer isnt hight enough.

this line is always trotted out about subsidies, first of all no subsidies come from irish taxation (so no

 

[joe sod]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Farmers complaining that getting 85% of their income paid by the taxpayer isnt hight enough.

this line is always trotted out about subsidies, first of all no subsidies irish farmers get comes from irish taxpayers because ireland is not a net contributor to the EU budget, by and large the subsidies are payed by german taxpayers, germany is a food importer not exporter like ireland therefore CAP is more in german interests because being a densely populated industrial country it has a secure european food supply, this was the whole reason behind the CAP and germany more than any other european country appreciates the benefit of this. Germany was devastated after WW2 and there was not enough food for people to eat. This did not happen in ireland or even britain therefore a lot of people here do not fully appreciate the benefits of this. Before the second world war food was largely based on world market, britain more than other countries depended alot on its former colonies for cheap food, however it learned to its cost the vulnerabilities of this policy, in fact it was irish farmers that stepped up to the plate during world war 2, that increased production to supply the british market,

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

Care to explain why?

You previously answered your own question, as above.

Why do you consider subsidies for farmers to be perfectly reasonable but unconscionable for other industries?

Where did I say that?

 

[room305]

Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?

You previously answered your own question, as above.

I am just not following you. If you are saying that the reason I am in favour of scrapping subsidies for farmers is because I think Irish farmers will do well out of it you are wrong. The industry will be decimated by their removal in much the same way the Irish sugar industry was. But that does not mean it is not worth doing.

We cannot simply prop up any industry that struggles with international competition. Otherwise we'd all still be agrarian farmers and nothing would have moved on much since the 1800s.

Where did I say that?

I thought I was paraphrasing but perhaps I misunderstood your posts. What then are your criteria for judging whether an industry should be handed our hard earned cash?

 

[ubiquitous]

I think you did misunderstand my posts. I don't think I have argued anywhere that farming or any industry should be automatically entitled to subsidies. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have said, however, that the removal of the existing subsidies from Irish and EU agriculture (which I believe is inevitable) will have unpleasant consequences for Irish & EU consumers in terms of food costs. I fully stand over this opinion, which I originally voiced on AAM some time ago, well before the recent spike in food commodity prices.

 

[room305]

I think you did misunderstand my posts. I don't think I have argued anywhere that farming or any industry should be automatically entitled to subsidies. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Okay, well please accept my apologies for misrepresenting your argument.

I have said, however, that the removal of the existing subsidies from Irish and EU agriculture (which I believe is inevitable) will have unpleasant consequences for Irish & EU consumers in terms of food costs. I fully stand over this opinion, which I originally voiced on AAM some time ago, well before the recent spike in food commodity prices.

The "recent" spike in commodity prices has been driven by US bio-ethanol subsidies.

I fail to see how the removal of subsidies for Irish farmers and the opening up of the EU food markets to global trade could lead to an increase in costs for food consumers. Otherwise why is their removal so bitterly opposed by farmers?

 

[diarmuidc]

If you allow the millions of oppressed to industrialise now then they will be in a far better position to deal with the implications of global warming in fifty years time.

You haven't read the IPCC Fourth Report (or a summary ). Delaying 50 years is not an option.
And regardless of whether you believe climate change or not you would have a hard time in denying that developing countries such as China are facing unprecedented environmental issues.

Alternatively you can keep people in poverty, reduce carbon emissions and hope the IPCC are correct in their assertions.

You don't have to pick one or the other. You can reduce carbon emissions and get people out of poverty. Granted the pace might not be as fast but there are other factors that could accelerate growth in an economy (mismanagement, corruption, simple tax system etc...) if that was the goal

The "recent" spike in commodity prices has been driven by US bio-ethanol subsidies.

That's only part of the reason.

Sorry for referring back to old posts but I have been away for a while