chinese ambassador and green party question

[johnwilliams]

why was the chinese ambassador at the green party conference .is he a member of the green party?. or do all ambassadors go to these things,and given that he knew in advance what was going to be said why did he bother showing up?

 

[ajapale]

I originally posted this in another thread but the comment is more appropriate here I think.

If John Gormley was around in the post war period 1945-1955 then he might have expedited Irleand's entry to the UN!

Our entry was held up for a decade primarily by China who regarded the Republic as a British Province and not a "real" country.

Kinda the same as Tibet!

It seems the reason the Chinese Ambassador stormed out of the Green Party Conference in Dundalk was JG's description of Tibet as a "country"!

Incidentally Scotland (and Wales) is a "country" but this does not cause any problem for even the most die hard unionists.

 

[Purple]

Great post Aj, I didn't know that. It certainly puts things in context.
As for John Gormley, while I admire his principled stand I am concerned by his political naivety.
It won't be his job that is lost if China decide to slap us around the place.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

why was the chinese ambassador at the green party conference .is he a member of the green party?. or do all ambassadors go to these things,and given that he knew in advance what was going to be said why did he bother showing up?

This was more or less choreographed. Suits both persons very well. JG is a hero with his party. The CA is a hero with Peking.

Did JG insult the US ambassador over Shannon on which he used to have strong views - not on your nelly, then we would be talking serious economic consequences for Ireland.

Would a CA snub a US government convention. No way, then we would be talking Olympic boycott.

Soft wins for both, fair enuff.

 

[werner]

This was more or less choreographed. Suits both persons very well. JG is a hero with his party. The CA is a hero with Peking.

Did JG insult the US ambassador over Shannon on which he used to have strong views - not on your nelly, then we would be talking serious economic consequences for Ireland.

Would a CA snub a US government convention. No way, then we would be talking Olympic boycott.

Soft wins for both, fair enuff.

The Green Party before it became a mini fianna fail party, used to be very vocal about the use of Shannon as an American airbase to supply toops to Iraq etc and its use for torture( rendition) flights. Since the "Greens" joined fianna fail in government they have toned down their rhetoric. Their most outspoken member on such issues used to be John Gormley.

It was a cynical stunt by Gormley to make the kind of noises that Green party members like to hear whilst dodging his previously outspoken views against Fainna Fail and the use of Shannon.

The loss of face in public for the Chinese is a very bad thing and I will be surprised if some aspect of trade does not suffer.

The total trade between China and Ireland in 2006 was, surprising to me, worth €6.3 billion.

I don't think we need stunts like Gormley's when the Irish economy is on the slide.

 

[The_Banker]

The Green Party before it became a mini fianna fail party, used to be very vocal about the use of Shannon as an American airbase to supply toops to Iraq etc and its use for torture( rendition) flights. Since the "Greens" joined fianna fail in government they have toned down their rhetoric. Their most outspoken member on such issues used to be John Gormley.

I think the same can be said of most political parties when in opposition. Fianna Fail are 'greener' when in opposition. Remember how they opposed the Anglo Irish Agreement when Fine Gael were in power in the mid 80s and then embrassed it whole heartedly once in government.
Fine Gael constantly rant about cuts in health spending and education spending. If they were in power tomorrow would they throw blank cheques at health & education? I doubt it.
Once parties get into power 'real politic' takes over and this is even more so when the party is a minor one.

 

[csirl]

The total trade between China and Ireland in 2006 was, surprising to me, worth €6.3 billion.

Most of this is one way - Ireland purchasing Chinese goods. So the Chinese have most to lose from breaking of trade relationships.

People need to remember that the only thing China can offer the world is cheap labour. The "markets" being opened up in China are due to payments made to China for cheap goods - this cash ends up in the Chinese economy.

There are whole continents of cheap labour in the world - western economies can easily source it elsewhere if they desire thus drying up the Chinese markets and having equivalent sized makets open up in these other countries. Remember, the growing markets are due to western money being pumped in, not due to anything specific to China.

 

[Caveat]

Good post csirl.

 

[Staples]

I don't partcularly like Gormley or the Greens but at least he had an opinion that he was prepared to voice. If only he'd be equally vocal about more immediate injustices closer to home (health services).

Might it be that he can't be expected to do anything about Tibet (except talk of course) whereas with domestic issues, he's part of the government that continues to fudge them.

 

[Purple]

I don't partcularly like Gormley or the Greens but at least he had an opinion that he was prepared to voice. If only he'd be equally vocal about more immediate injustices closer to home (health services).

Might it be that he can't be expected to do anything about Tibet (except talk of course) whereas with domestic issues, he's part of the government that continues to fudge them.

See The Banker's excellent post. Apply it to all rhetoric from any opposition party.
The biggest lie that politicians tell is when they say that they can change/fix things that are beyond their power.

 

[Purple]

I don't partcularly like Gormley or the Greens but at least he had an opinion that he was prepared to voice. If only he'd be equally vocal about more immediate injustices closer to home (health services).

Might it be that he can't be expected to do anything about Tibet (except talk of course) whereas with domestic issues, he's part of the government that continues to fudge them.

What do you expect him (or any politician) to do about the Health Service?
None of them have the power to push through the reforms needed; we’ve seen that over the last 15 years. Nurses talk about under funding and in the next breath they talk about pay increases (and an even shorter working week which amounts to the same thing). In a world of limited resources both are not possible. I only mention nurses because they spring to mind; the same applies to all public services, and many private ones. John Gormley cannot perform miracles, he can talk in aspirational terms but the reach of his political office limits him. In that he is the same as any other political office holder.

 

[rmelly]

for torture( rendition) flights.

Alleged rendition flights.

 

[Green]

None of them have the power to push through the reforms needed; we’ve seen that over the last 15 years...........John Gormley cannot perform miracles, he can talk in aspirational terms but the reach of his political office limits him. In that he is the same as any other political office holder.

All politicians have the power to push reforms however what they lack is the political will to do so....reform is great..and as we have seen on this site everybody wants public sector reform..however no political party will push it to the stage where they loose votes...

 

[Purple]

All politicians have the power to push reforms however what they lack is the political will to do so....reform is great..and as we have seen on this site everybody wants public sector reform..however no political party will push it to the stage where they loose votes...

The public sector establishment can stop any political reform they want to. In practice SIPTU has a veto over government decisions.

 

[room305]

There are whole continents of cheap labour in the world - western economies can easily source it elsewhere if they desire thus drying up the Chinese markets and having equivalent sized makets open up in these other countries. Remember, the growing markets are due to western money being pumped in, not due to anything specific to China.

Excellent post csirl. China is the "factory of the world" because it provides cheap labour, a complete lack of environmental standards and will source energy from anywhere (e.g. oil from Sudan and Iran, unethically mined coal, hydro-electric energy from dams involving mass 're-location' programmes etc.). It also steals from its own citizens through currency debasement to remain competitive with the US dollar.

The public sector establishment can stop any political reform they want to. In practice SIPTU has a veto over government decisions.

Scary and true. I don't think Mary Harney is "lacking in political will" when it comes to health sector reform. Even those who disagree with her reform objectives, don't doubt her sincerity in wishing to have them implemented.

 

[Staples]

What do you expect him (or any politician) to do about the Health Service?
None of them have the power to push through the reforms needed; we’ve seen that over the last 15 years. Nurses talk about under funding and in the next breath they talk about pay increases (and an even shorter working week which amounts to the same thing). In a world of limited resources both are not possible.

If not politicians, then who? You can hardly expect nurses to assume responsibility for the efficiency of the wider health service of which they are just a part.

Any reform requires VISION at governmental level to take a series of what might be imediately unpopular decisions in the short-term for the purposes of achieving a long-term visionary outcome. You can't blame, say, nurses in isloation for what is a much deeper malaise across the health sector as a whole. Why should they (or any particular cohort) be expected to act responsibly when all around are doing something else?

It requires leadership at the very highest level to bring disparate cohorts together. The peace agreement in the north shows what's possible if the will is genuinely there at the level that matters - that of government.

The will needs to be there. It simply isn't at the moment.

It's about time the Greens remembered they're part of Government and dealt with the issues that matter to the people that helped put them there. Talking about Tibet is fine, but it's easily to talk when you don't have to follow up.

 

[Bluebells]

Sorry if I'm interrupting here ..... but why was the Chinese Ambassador at the Green Party Conference?