Traffic deaths versus suicide

[Betsy Og]

Shouldnt general mental health education be a feature of the education system & society in general.

We spend millions on anti-smoking & responsible use of acohol - and thats fair enough - but a few bob towards educating people about mental health issues would be money well spent. A recent report said most people dont know that they can get help or where to get it.

If we keep the "big house with high walls" philosophy then its not surprising the general population will have little understanding of people with mental illness. I dont really buy the view that giving info about mental health "puts the idea of suicide" into peoples minds.

I genuinely think that its a popular pecreption that anyone who is or was ill is "permanently gone", a constant danger to themselves and others. This is not true for the majorty, it is true for a minority and to deny that might be to not care appopriately for the minority. Maybe its the 'therapy culture' of the US but I'd imagine theres a bit more openness about it there, in Ireland people tend to recoil in fear if it comes up in conversation, or resort to easy sterotypes - "sure wasnt he in hospital before..." (nuff said being the implication).

 

[ubiquitous]

But how can a family face up to a suicide if nobody will dare speak the dreaded 's word'.

This double standard filters downwards to ordinary citizens who will speak in hushed tones about the deceased and rarely mention the why and how of his/her death.

My personal experience in this regard stems from when my uncle committed suicide in 1983. At no stage throughout the years did anybody in my family admit that he took his own life and it was only much later that I accidentally discovered the truth.

In fairness, Ireland has changed a lot since the 1980s. My own experience, based both on a bereavement through suicide within my own family, and various suicide tragedies in my own locality over the years is that the "double standard" to which you refer is a now a thing of the past. When suicides happen nowadays, my own perception is that the family, friends & community of the deceased make no effort to obscure or deny what has happened and the reasons behind the tragedy. This open approach, far from shaming or stigmatising anyone, greatly helps the bereaved to cope with, and recover from, the bereavement.

Juries in coroners courts are reluctant to deliver a verdict of death by suicide unless the facts of the case leave no uncertainty that the death was by suicide, eg if a note is left, or if the victim had attempted suicide in the past. While this situation is not ideal, it is still better than having juries jumping to conclusions and delivering suicide verdicts in cases where it is by no means certain that suicide was involved.

 

[Chamar]

In fairness, Ireland has changed a lot since the 1980s. My own experience, based both on a bereavement through suicide within my own family, and various suicide tragedies in my own locality over the years is that the "double standard" to which you refer is a now a thing of the past. When suicides happen nowadays, my own perception is that the family, friends & community of the deceased make no effort to obscure or deny what has happened and the reasons behind the tragedy. This open approach, far from shaming or stigmatising anyone, greatly helps the bereaved to cope with, and recover from, the bereavement.

Juries in coroners courts are reluctant to deliver a verdict of death by suicide unless the facts of the case leave no uncertainty that the death was by suicide, eg if a note is left, or if the victim had attempted suicide in the past. While this situation is not ideal, it is still better than having juries jumping to conclusions and delivering suicide verdicts in cases where it is by no means certain that suicide was involved.

While I agree that Ireland has changed a lot since the 80s I still think there is an awful stigma attached to suicide. And to be honest death in general. It's not just a case of the dreaded 's' word but also the dreaded 'd' word. And I would guess that is similar across many cultures.

I haven't personally been affected by suicide but I live with bereavement and I can tell you that in that alone there is stigma. People look at you funny, avoid you, say the most ridiculous things if they speak to you, drop you, gossip about you etc etc. I really mean that. If someone commits suicide I can imagine it is like that x 100 not to mention the added grief that it must bring.

I have to say it does bug me that we have endless campaigns to prevent car accidents and as far as I can see, NOTHING to help stop suicide. Pick up any local newspaper in the country and there will almost always be an obituary of someone who died 'in tragic circumstances'.

 

[ubiquitous]

While I agree that Ireland has changed a lot since the 80s I still think there is an awful stigma attached to suicide.

This opinion does certainly not tally with my own family's experience. If you had based your opinion on actual experience, fair enough, but otherwise as someone who "has been there" so to speak, I think your theory is a bit dubious.

I haven't personally been affected by suicide but I live with bereavement and I can tell you that in that alone there is stigma. People look at you funny, avoid you, say the most ridiculous things if they speak to you, drop you, gossip about you etc etc. I really mean that. If someone commits suicide I can imagine it is like that x 100 not to mention the added grief that it must bring.

Again this does not tally with my family's experience. Death is never an easy thing to deal with. It is quite understandable and forgiveable if some people are uncomfortable in bereavement situations. Everyone means well, even if they sometimes seem clumsy, self-conscious or awkward in dealing with bereaved relatives. On the other hand, bereavement (especially after a tragedy such as suicide) would be a lot harder to deal with were it not for support of neighbours, friends, relatives.

I have to say it does bug me that we have endless campaigns to prevent car accidents and as far as I can see, NOTHING to help stop suicide.

Agreed.

 

[liteweight]

I think the attitude of a suicide's family has, quite rightly, changed too. In the past there was a stigma attached to suicide...mainly religious induced. My only experience of this stigma was when I was very young and a neighbour's daughter committed suicide. My mother was aked by a few neighbours if she knew what happened. The family in question were viewed as odd anyway and my mother was the only person they really spoke to on the road. My mother replied that she did not know what had happened...all that she knew was a neighbours child had died and that the family needed support. I remember thinking my mother must have a terrible memory because she'd been told last night that the girl took too many tablets!!

Anyway the neighbours decided they should not visit the family. My mother went inside, made soup and sandwiches and a casserole. I knew better than to ask what was going on (when she looked like that, you stayed quiet). When she was finished she put on her hat and coat, gathered up the food and walked down the street to the neighbour's house. She had me in tow because I was too young to leave in the house alone.

Mrs. X opened the door and immediately began shouting at my mother. Can't remember it all but things like.......you with your perfect family, are you down here to gloat? My mother told her that a dreadful thing had happened, she was sure it was very hard but she and her family had to eat. The woman asked her if she was boasting that she had plenty of food??? My mother stood her ground and was eventually allowed into the house. The last thing I remember is Mrs. X sobbing in my mother's arms...I was thrown out into the back garden to play.

I asked my mother about this years later. She said Mrs. X was from a small island and didn't really ever settle in to Dublin life. The priest had refused to give the suicide last rites and the general concensus among the neighbours was to stay away but they did whisper and stare.

So although the situation is still not great with regard to public awareness etc. it's getting there I think. I doubt the above would happen today and we're better as a society for it.

 

[ney001]

I have to say i am absolutely terrible at dealing with death - I have no idea what to say to people so I would be one of those people who say ridiculous things - I think nerves get the better of me. I remember one time I was at the funeral of a friends father, I got in line to shake hands with the family when I got to my friend's brother, I asked him 'how's it goin?' . I can assure you i did not mean to be funny or smart - I just get very nervous when dealing with things like this - I think most people would understand that.

Regarding suicide - I think especially in smaller rural towns there is a stigma attached to it, I have known of (unfortunately ) a few young men who have killed themselves over the years in my OH's home town and when someone is talking about the family, they will always say 'ah you know the Murphy's - the ones who's son killed themselves last year' - forever more that family will be remembered as the family who had a suicide.

 

[ubiquitous]

they will always say 'ah you know the Murphy's - the ones who's son killed themselves last year' - forever more that family will be remembered as the family who had a suicide.

Does that equal a stigma? Again as someone who has "been there", I don't think it does... Its simply a fact of life. There is a big difference between a stigma and a reference point.


You might as well say, 'ah you know the Murphy's - the ones who won the Lotto' or 'the ones whose father died of cancer last year'

 

[liteweight]

Does that equal a stigma? Again as someone who has "been there", I don't think it does... Its simply a fact of life. There is a big difference between a stigma and a reference point.


You might as well say, 'ah you know the Murphy's - the ones who won the Lotto' or 'the ones whose father died of cancer last year'

But you seem to have a very well balanced approach to dealing with it. I think for some, to be defined by a suicide in one's family, is tantamount to a stigma.

 

[ney001]

Well I see what you mean but the way I've heard it said (usually by OH's mother) - it's not a reference point, it's usually accompanied by the eyes to indicate that there is problems there (i.e in the family). My OH's cousin killed himself a few years ago and nobody in the family talks about it - if his name comes up in conversation, you can see they older members of the family looking away, they feel quite ashamed I think!. I know that this is the wrong attitude but again, it's a rural area where everybody knows everybody else and I think they would rather that it's just forgotten about.

Liteweight - out of interest do priests nowadays give the last rites? - I assume they do!

 

[ubiquitous]

Well I see what you mean but the way I've heard it said (usually by OH's mother) - it's not a reference point, it's usually accompanied by the eyes to indicate that there is problems there (i.e in the family).

With all due respects, she is the person with the problem if her opinions are that odd...

Liteweight - out of interest do priests nowadays give the last rites? - I assume they do!

What a question to ask!!! Of course they do, and have done so for decades.

 

[ney001]

Of course she's the one with the problem - I wasn't suggesting otherwise!

Don't hold with religion much so don't know the correct protocol - sorry if this offends you so much

 

[ubiquitous]

I think for some, to be defined by a suicide in one's family, is tantamount to a stigma.

How do you know? I. Have you or members of your family, for example, participated in suicide bereavement groups? If not, its easy for you to talk, and perhaps you should re-examine your prejudices, at the very least because they may well be offensive to others...

 

[ubiquitous]

Of course she's the one with the problem - I wasn't suggesting otherwise!

Why then did you say that the families of suicide victims carry a stigma?

Why should they be concerned with, (and more particularly, why should you extrapolate theories from) the opinions of someone who sounds like they live in the valley of the squinting windows?

Don't hold with religion much so don't know the correct protocol - sorry if this offends you so much

Come on...!! Have you never heard of a funeral taking place of a suicide victim??!!!

 

[ney001]

When I said there was a stigma attached to suicide I am not saying for one second that there should be - but based on my own experience and talking to various people in said town - then yes there is a stigma attached to it - I am truly delighted to see that you have had a different experience to this but as an outsider in a small town I have seen things a little bit differently. The older generation in particular have difficulty with it (in my experience).

 

[liteweight]

How do you know? I. Have you or members of your family, for example, participated in suicide bereavement groups? If not, its easy for you to talk, and perhaps you should re-examine your prejudices, at the very least because they may well be offensive to others...

Yes.....on both counts. What are my prejudices Ubiquitous?

 

[gianni]

I haven't had a chance to read entire thread... but since this is a public forum posters should consider the following points as outlined on page 4 of this document released by the Samaritans :

[broken link removed]


If anyone needs someone to talk to the Samaritans can be contacted here:

In the Republic of Ireland dial 1850 60 90 90, for the cost of a local call.

 

[ajapale]

Hi gianni,

This is a good point. Perhaps posters might have a look at the Samaritans Guidlines before posting on the subject of suicide?

Thanks,

aj

[broken link removed]

 

[Betsy Og]

Good to see that the Samaritans document encourages talking about the issue. I think that if the messages of understanding and sources of help/information could go out to people it would be a positive start.

Its often said that Ireland has become more hard boiled and that, in an era of such success and conspicuous consumption its particularly hard if you feel a failure.

One issue thats particularly scary, and which I dont have insight into, is "clusters". Surely an swift response team to give talks in schools etc is needed in such situations. I recall seeing something about public talks in Fermoy (or maybe it was Middleton) which was particularly affected a few years back.

 

[dontaskme]

Good to see that the Samaritans document encourages talking about the issue. I think that if the messages of understanding and sources of help/information could go out to people it would be a positive start.

Its often said that Ireland has become more hard boiled and that, in an era of such success and conspicuous consumption its particularly hard if you feel a failure.

One issue thats particularly scary, and which I dont have insight into, is "clusters". Surely an swift response team to give talks in schools etc is needed in such situations. I recall seeing something about public talks in Fermoy (or maybe it was Middleton) which was particularly affected a few years back.

Midleton, I'd say.