people coming into this country and getting rent paid to the tune of €1300 p.m.

MandaC

Registered User
Messages
1,784
Moderator note: split from this thread Is welfare fraud my only option?


The system is unreal. How are people coming into this country and getting rent paid to the tune of €1300 per month and yet other people are expected to live on nothing.
 
Re: Is welfare fraud my only option?

How are people coming into this country and getting rent paid to the tune of €1300 per month and yet other people are expected to live on nothing.
I don't know? Do you?
 
Re: Is welfare fraud my only option?

No, I don t know how they are getting it, but I wish I did!!
 
Re: Is welfare fraud my only option?

Sorry - I meant do you know how many people are getting this and in what circumstances?
 
Re: Is welfare fraud my only option?

I would be interested to hear about this too. It is obvious reading through some of these posts that a there are a lot of misconceptions about the rights and entitlements of EU and non-EU nationals in Ireland. It might be worthshile to have a .

If someone is having their rent paid for them, then I would presume they are receiving the HSE Rent Supplement, in order to qualify for which they must meet certain qualifying criteria. Those who currently receive Rent Supplement in Ireland include older people, people with disabilities, homeless people, people who pass the habitual residency test, or who are assessed by a housing authority as having a housing need.

If someone is receiving Rent Supplement, they obviously meet the criteria for that payment - just as someone who has spent their entire live in Ireland would.

If you think this person is claiming this payment fraudulently, then you should report that fraud to your local social welfare office.
 
Re: Is welfare fraud my only option?

An African woman and her two children moved onto my road last year. She was speaking to my neighbour and complained that the rent had risen to €1,200 per month of which the Eastern Health Board were only going to pay €900.00. I dont know what type of payment she was on.

Her partner lived there undeclared. He thought no body knew and used to sneak in under cover of darkness. Both of them drove cars, (bangers) She said she was an Accountant back in her own country and was better off on the social welfare here. The family went to Trinidad and Tobago on hols in the summer of 2005.

Needless to say, I reported them and not long after heard they were moving to Galway, where the rent was cheaper.

My sister living in Clondalkin, say the close, got a rent allowance cheque in for the Green. She went around to deliver the cheque to Mr. X(Romanian) He was not there and she left the cheque. The second time it was delivered - about two months later, she went again, but this time insisted that she wanted to speak to Mr. X in person. Probably because they knew her from the last time, they let their guard down and told them Mr. X had the house sublet to them. Anyway, my sister wrote a brief note to the Social Welfare explaining the situation and I dont know what happened after that.

These are just two I know of who have come into the country(as I was asked for examples), but I am sure there are many more out there. I am not saying that this is unique to non irish people by the way, I am sure there are Irish people at it too. The system is way to easy to defraud.

As I said, I dont know what payments these people are qualifying for, is it Unemployment Assistance?, or is it that their rent is paid while they are waiting on the housing list?, but its being paid, so I dont see how a genuine case as the person listed above can only be given €28 per week to survive on.

Why is his girlfriend expected to keep him? Yet she is only allowed to claim a single persons tax credit? So the social welfare want her to keep him because they are living together. Yet the Revenue want to assess her as a single person and not take into account the fact that she is subsidising him?
 
These seem to be cases of welfare fraud. Hardly the fault of "the system" or indicative that it is "unreal" as you originally claimed? Abuse of the system and fraudulent claims are objectionable no matter what the origin of the perpetrator.
 
The maximum levels of rent allowance are detailed here e.g a single mother in Dublin with two children could get €1,200 p.m. towards rent. This would not necessarily involve welfare fraud and rent allowance is not restricted to black Africans. The vast majority of recipients are white and Irish.

http://www.inou.ie/download/pdf/max_rent_levels_county.pdf

Please note that the person who ultimately gets this money is the landlord. I have ranted elsewhere to the effect that rent allowance is a subsidy to speculators and developers and that social housing should be used instead.
 
The maximum levels of rent allowance are detailed here e.g a single mother in Dublin with two children could get €1,200 p.m. towards rent. This would not necessarily involve welfare fraud and rent allowance is not restricted to black Africans. The vast majority of recipients are white and Irish.

In fairness to MandaC, s/he was relating his/her own experience with regard to this subject. S/he also pointed out that the post was not meant to imply that only foreigners were involved in this kind of fraud. On these pages alone, I've read posts from people openly admitting that they have partners but do not inform social welfare because their payments would be reduced. In the past, I have had personal knowledge of two such cases i.e. single mothers with live-in partners claiming allowance.

I think the real gripe that people have is, that the typical nuclear family, with only one person working, could not hope to rent accommodation of this calibre i.e. costing 1,200 p.m. In such cases they are often left with GP, medicine, school fees and a lot more besides. It is very difficult for such a couple to cope and it must be very hard to watch others receive handouts.


Please note that the person who ultimately gets this money is the landlord. I have ranted elsewhere to the effect that rent allowance is a subsidy to speculators and developers and that social housing should be used instead.

This is a moot point IMO. The point is that these people have the money to pay said landlord whereas many 'legitimate' (for want of a better word) couples do not. They face the stress of trying to make the rent every day. Surely the onus is on social welfare to weed out the fraudsters.
 
I recall an AAM drinks night in which I mentioned knowing of one case where an unmarried couple had a child, but could make more in welfare by living apart than if they lived together, and wondered how this tallied with what I presumed was the States goal of keeping families together.
Yes, Yes, I know. If you aren't married, you're not REALLY a family.

I also recall (not for the first time) being in the minority for thinking that that situation was unacceptable, but it's so long ago now I can't remember whar the other side of the argument was, or who was proposing it.

In the case that I knew of, both parents had rent paid in separate houses, and were classed as living apart. The Father would stay over at the mothers quite a bit, (which I'm sure he was entitled to do), meaning that the state was paying for an empty bed for him at his own place.

It was explained to me that if they officially lived together they would be Net worse off. Though I regret I can't remember the details of which benefits they would lose by moving in together. I should have kept notes.

There was no fraud. It was simply a government paying extra and (at least officially) keeping a family apart. A sort of pay more, get less approach.

I'm sure the guy in question could have sublet his own bed. He didn't, and it wouldn't have been allowed by the landlord in question, but in theory with a more willing landlord it wouldn't have been difficult.

The landlord was happy to have a steady stream of income, with the tennant being out as often as he was in.

Of course people are free to go out, stay out, visit friends, go on holiday, so there's no fraud in someone not sleeping in the bed provided, and it would be wrong to force them to admit where they were staying.

-Rd
 
I think the real gripe that people have is, that the typical nuclear family, with only one person working, could not hope to rent accommodation of this calibre i.e. costing 1,200 p.m. In such cases they are often left with GP, medicine, school fees and a lot more besides. It is very difficult for such a couple to cope and it must be very hard to watch others receive handouts.


This is a moot point IMO. The point is that these people have the money to pay said landlord whereas many 'legitimate' (for want of a better word) couples do not. They face the stress of trying to make the rent every day. Surely the onus is on social welfare to weed out the fraudsters.


My solution would be for those in receipt of rent allowance for a period of say more than three years to be provided with social housing and charged a nominal rent. They would then no longer be receiving large monthly rent payments They would no longer be commiting fraud by having their working partners staying with them and they would not be disincentivised from working by the prospect of losing their rent payments. In addition to costing a lot of money the rent allowance scheme as it is currently constituted keeps a lot of people in a poverty trap
 
Surely the onus is on social welfare to weed out the fraudsters.

Of course people are free to go out, stay out, visit friends, go on holiday, so there's no fraud in someone not sleeping in the bed provided, and it would be wrong to force them to admit where they were staying.

-Rd

imo strictly enforcing the regulations would involve an unacceptable degree of intrusion into peoples private lives and an infringement of their civil liberties. Should there be welfare enforcers hiding under people's beds or in the bushes outside their bedroom windows in order to ensure that they don't have any overnight guests that are in gainful employment.
 
imo enforcing this would involve an unacceptable degree of intrusion into peoples private lives.

Agreed, and that's the point I was making. The question is why is the state willing to pay more to keep famililes apart. Why is the state willing to pay to keep empty beds in houses, while at the same time strugling to find a bed for many others who are homeless.

I don't believe people who have the rent paid break any law by not sleeping in their own bed. If the state wants to pay for them to have their own place that they rarely use, that's the states decision.

If you have two people who are both entitled individually to have their rent paid, and those two people happen to be willing to share a house, or even a bed, doesn't it make sense to let them live toghether without cutting the other (non rent) benefits that they are each entitled to.

When there's a child involved it makes even less sense to pay more to keep them apart.

The state saves the cost of renting an extra room or house or whatever., and a family gets to stay together.

I'm at a loss as usual to find the rational explaination that allows the current situation to exist. In fact I keep hoping I'm wrong in my understanding of the situation, but I don't believe I am.

In case anyone is wondering, I'm not saying that I'm thrilled that the state is paying rent, medical bills etc, etc, etc, for one group of people, while others who are working their asses off and can barely make ends meet get nothing at all. But that's a completely different problem, and as has been pointed out, not one which in anyway relates to race or nationality.

-Richard
 
Presumably part of the issue is the constitutional definition of family which the state is obliged to defend/support? Until that is widened certain anomalies will persist.
 
Presumably part of the issue is the constitutional definition of family which the state is obliged to defend/support? Until that is widened certain anomalies will persist.

Except my understanding is that these people would lose the same benefits by getting married that they would by living together.
As far as I know the state actually makes it financially advantageous for certain people to remain apart.

My point at the AAM drinks night was that I thought this was unconstitutional, but if it was I'm sure it would have been challenged.

If anyone can explain why it isn't I'm interested....

-Rd
 
If you have two people who are both entitled individually to have their rent paid, and those two people happen to be willing to share a house, or even a bed, doesn't it make sense to let them live toghether without cutting the other (non rent) benefits that they are each entitled to.

I'm not sure that they would lose any benefits by living together in this example. The only drawback I can see is that in order to maintain those benefits the man would have to "officially" move out and leave his family if he found a job.
 
I'm not sure that they would lose any benefits by living together in this example. The only drawback I can see is that in order to maintain those benefits the man would have to "officially" move out and leave his family if he found a job.

In the case that I knew of there was a child involved. I believe the mother stood to loose benefits if the father moved in. I wish I could recall the situation better.

Thankfully I've never had personal experience of Welfare so it's an area I'm rusty on.

-Richard
 
Presumably part of the issue is the constitutional definition of family which the state is obliged to defend/support? Until that is widened certain anomalies will persist.

I think that the constitutional definiton that has been interpreted by the courts is fairly narrow. It is a hetrosexual married couple.
 
imo strictly enforcing the regulations would involve an unacceptable degree of intrusion into peoples private lives and an infringement of their civil liberties. Should there be welfare enforcers hiding under people's beds or in the bushes outside their bedroom windows in order to ensure that they don't have any overnight guests that are in gainful employment.

Some might say that if one wants to accept handouts then one should be willing to put up with the intrusion.

I, however, do not think that. It's understandable that a woman/mother wants to socialise and it's perfectly normal that while doing this, she meets someone with whom she makes a connection. Good luck to her! From the male perspective, he might like or even love the woman but that does not mean he's willing to take her and her children on. Not initially at any rate. The problem, as I see it, is that as the relationship continues, the male often moves in....but they have become used to the social welfare payments on top of his salary and do not want to give this up by 'coming clean'. Greed enters the picture. I have personal experience of a young woman standing before me, telling me she intended to become pregnant for the second time, as she'd 'make more on it'!! Her words, not mine.

At this stage, the woman on social welfare and her partner are able to afford an awful lot more than a couple raising their children by their own devices. The latter's income is taken up by keeping a roof over their heads, medical bills, clothing etc. On the face of it, they look like they earn more, but in REAL terms they have less disposable income. Naturally this situation breeds resentment.

The sad thing is that the solution used to be social housing. In the forties and fifties, councils built places for people to live. Not so in the days of the Celtic Tiger! The best we could do in the seventies and eighties was to put people 'in the back of beyond'. I didn't think it could possibly get worse but the Celtic Tiger proved me wrong!!

My solution would be to give an unmarried mother a chance to get back on her feet for six months after giving birth. At that time, I would provide education and free creche facilities. When she finished vocational training, I would provide these facilities free for a further year, if the woman was in gainful employment. If her chosen career did not meet all her expenses, then she could be entitled to family income supplement, at the same rate which so many 'ordinary' couples are entitled to. Ireland, I feel went from the sublime to the ridiculous......initially unmarried mothers were shunned.....then, through guilt and not wanting to be seen as backward.....we threw money at them.

Having a child is not an illness. Thousands of women with children work every day, as do their partners, in order to keep a roof over their heads, and to feed, clothe and educate their children.
 
Back
Top