I personally don't think he should have been given the time on RTE. This wasn't news we watched last night, this was a party political, or a personal political, broadcast on behalf of Bertie Ahern, TD.
Bertie Ahern: Good deal or bad deal for people of Ireland
- Thread starter mayoman2
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I personally don't think he should have been given the time on RTE. This wasn't news we watched last night, this was a party political, or a personal political, broadcast on behalf of Bertie Ahern, TD.
You won't find anyone tackling him on this as this is the way appointments have always been made by all parties. Sinful I know. I predict Irish people will be out on the streets protesting. Not.
Hibernicatio
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This could not and would not happen in any other democracy on earth. There is absolutely no reason why he should be allowed to stay in his position after this. If he does then I am afraid that I will have lost all (depleting) faith in this country and the supposed leaders.
Vincent Browne did tackle this issue last night. But only cranks like me listen to Vinny.
Dont feel to bad Clubman this crank was listening to Vinny too but only because I was travelling.
bogwarrior
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Probably a good time to cast your mind back to Paintgate - the Ivor Callely scandal last year (Callely didn't pay a bill of £1500 (IRP) back in the early 90's and had to resign when it was revealed last year).
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1207/callelyi.html
some good quotes from this : http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1208/callelyi.html
”Bertie Ahern told ministers that Mr Callely tendered his resignation in the public interest and in view of the fact that the ongoing controversies made it impossible for him to effectively and productively carry out his ministerial duties.”
”When the Taoiseach spoke about the matter in the Dáil yesterday, he said he was not impressed.”
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1207/callelyi.html
some good quotes from this : http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1208/callelyi.html
”Bertie Ahern told ministers that Mr Callely tendered his resignation in the public interest and in view of the fact that the ongoing controversies made it impossible for him to effectively and productively carry out his ministerial duties.”
”When the Taoiseach spoke about the matter in the Dáil yesterday, he said he was not impressed.”
ubiquitous
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Are you sure? I couldn't imagine Tony Blair or George W Bush resigning after a scandal like this.
But when this was put to Michael Martin this morning on Morning Ireland, he said that the painting incident was only part of a series of incidents in which Callely was being hounded for by the Opposition. It was all of these incidents together that necessitated his being booted out of government, not the painting thing on it's own.
Therefore, if you like, in baseball terms, the painting incident was strike 3 for Ivor, whereas Bertie is only on strike 1?????
Totally agree with you ubiquitous. Sure they've invaded countries on the basis of bogus evidence and had hundreds of their countrymen killed and still stayed in charge. Taking a couple of quid off a few mates would be nothing to them.
I mean, George W Bush had a good friend called Ken Lay, and he never ....
I have to agree.
George W has raised hundreds of millions for his party since he was elected. His career as a politician has been marred by claims that he has been paid off and bailed out at every hands turn.
Jacques Chirac would most likely be in prison if he was not president of France there are so many investigations into his dealings.
Tony Blare will be interviewed by the police next month about his role in alleged illegal payments for peerages .
Silvio Berlusconi has been accused of serious crimes by opposition leaders , journalists and lawyers.
I’m not sure if Bertie should fall on his sword or not but lets keep a sense of perspective.
bogwarrior
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yeah, if you chose to forget his signing of blank cheques for CjH back in the glory days....
That was softball, not baseball I think... anyway the one thing for sure is that it's just not Cricket.
elefantfresh
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He's a politician - is he not supposed to be crooked???
Bertie's reported salary is currently €290K per annum. The loans, without interest, total €50K.
On salary, that amount is proportionately equivalent to my car loan, which I have borrowed over 5 years.
If he wanted to, he could clear that principal without issue.
On salary, that amount is proportionately equivalent to my car loan, which I have borrowed over 5 years.
If he wanted to, he could clear that principal without issue.
markowitzman
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As someone who went through a tax audit for one full year and knows only too well the stress on both myself and my family I think this country is now at a crossroads.
Either we go back to the cute whoor, gombeen, wink wink nod nod system so prevalent in the past and pat Berite on the back for a heart-tugging performance or we refer this tax issue to revenue and let them bring the full rigours of the law to bear and investigate this matter. I stress investigate and not hang and flog without due process.
While this process is ongoing I feel Bertie should step aside as a gesture of honour to the Irish people. Politically if he doesn´t I think McDowell will be left with no option but to jump ship rather than go down in same boat.
elefantfresh
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I hear you Markowitzman, but does anyone really believe that he will stand down? that he will face the full rigours of the law? Don't be daft. He'll drag this out, just as he has been doing so well so far, and sure enough, he'll be voted in again. I'm telling you. We truly do get the government we deserve in this country. Only ourselves to blame.
Is this not a red herring?
Assume A they were gifts as this is what they are in essence after 7 years
Firstly he received 22,500 in 1993 from 8 different people ( 2,500 from 7 and 5000 from 1) assume small gift exemption at the time was £700 this leaves a liability of 16,900 at 20% for tax however I do not have the leg with me but i assume threshold C stranger threshold would have covered this at the time therefore leaving him no liability.
The amount for 1994 was 16,500 from 4 different individuals again assume small gift of 700 again leaving liability of 13,700 @20 for Cat cancelled by stranger limit threshold C again.
I know Cat Calculation has changed since the early 90's but it was still quite similar.
He has a liability for the £8000 grand after dinner speech gig but this is tiny stuff No?
I am indifferent to the rationale for the gifts and the sentimentality about his situation at the time. But just from a Tax perspective dose he have any questions to answer ?
Assume A they were gifts as this is what they are in essence after 7 years
Firstly he received 22,500 in 1993 from 8 different people ( 2,500 from 7 and 5000 from 1) assume small gift exemption at the time was £700 this leaves a liability of 16,900 at 20% for tax however I do not have the leg with me but i assume threshold C stranger threshold would have covered this at the time therefore leaving him no liability.
The amount for 1994 was 16,500 from 4 different individuals again assume small gift of 700 again leaving liability of 13,700 @20 for Cat cancelled by stranger limit threshold C again.
I know Cat Calculation has changed since the early 90's but it was still quite similar.
He has a liability for the £8000 grand after dinner speech gig but this is tiny stuff No?
I am indifferent to the rationale for the gifts and the sentimentality about his situation at the time. But just from a Tax perspective dose he have any questions to answer ?
From a political standpoint, and given the actions of our politicians still in covering up what's gone before, and still, even years after all the tribunals have been in place, not coming clean, have we ever left the kind of Ireland you're describing there?
I would like to thing that our leaner and meaner Revenue would take on this investigation and follow due process. However, given it's treatment of Charlie Haughey, I'm not all that confident that they will. I think that we can all be sure that the Revenue will never go after Bertie like they'd go after you and me had we been found to be doing the same thing.
A gesture? From the man who originally told us all that this was none of our business? I think not. He still hasn't even acknowledged that he's done anything wrong. Why stand down if you've done nothing wrong?
As for honour, this is the same politician who gave the graveside oration for the biggest political crook we'll ever see in this country. Nuff said!
I would like to think that you're right here, but McDowell is a politician first. And despite being in the party who claim to stand for the highest morals in political life, he'll know that to jump ship so soon after taking charge would be political suicide.
A lot of people expected him to jump ship straight away. Maybe this leak was leaked by Fianna Fail to call McDowells bluff, and thereby force him into action one way or the other. Jump ship weakens the PDs. Staying on weakens the PDs.
D
daltonr
Guest
Bertie Ahern has only one question to answer.
If any other member of the Fianna Fail front bench or parlimentary party was in this position, would you fire them/force them to resign?
The answer is an unequivocal yes, because Mr Ahern is the master of political expediency.
So why doesn't he fire himself/force himself to resign?
His judgement is clouded by a long held ambition to serve three full terms as taoiseach. He wants to win more elections than anyone else.
He wants to go down in history as the most succesful Taoiseach in the history of the country. But success in Mr Ahernes world is measured in polls, not progress. Winning the election is all that matters, reform of healthcare, building infrastructure, keeping inflation under control, keeping the country competitive, these are all secondary to winning elections.
When pressed on his failures Bertie and his fans will repeatedly fall back on The North. What a great job he did in the North. Well the agreement was almost 10 years ago, and Bertie didn't do it all by himself.
If Bertie was only capable of dealing with the North then he should have resigned as Taoiseach and appointed himself chief negotiator for the Irish Republic. Allow someone else look after the rest of the people who live in the part of the island that actually elected him.
Bertie Ahern has lied repeatedly to the Dail, the has employed double standards on an epic scale. He has gotten away with a lot of it by using a new language that he has developed in which the mismash of words that spew from him can't be understood, but asking for clarification makes you look like the stupid one.
On a personal level he's the reason I ended by support of Fianna Fail many many years ago. I joined Fianna Fail inspired by stories of what Sean LeMass achieved. I left because any party that could look up to Bertie Ahern wasn't the party for me.
Ahern is the Anti-Lemass. Lemass took a nation cripled by an isolationist attitude and no industrial base worth speaking of and transformed it into something that we're still reaping the rewards of.
Ahern took a country through the greatest economic boom in it's history and failed to translate that into improved services and infrastructure.
Even where he built infranstructure it was half assed, botched, and grossly over priced.
When we should have been propelled to a bright future we're stuck with a backwards nation that can't build two tram lines that connect or a tunnel big enough for todays trucks.
We build hospitals wards and leave them empty rather than commit to the annual spending required to staff and run them.
We introduce social housing programs in such a way that they serve only to increase the profits of the developers who fund Mr Ahern and his party.
Was it because of a lack of ability that we had these failures?
No. When the chips are down this government can deliver. Give them a golf tournament in Kildare and they'll build you a fantastic road, ahead of schedule.
But give them something more mundane like providing facilities for the people who live in the country year round, and have to move further and further from their work to afford somewhere to live, then suddenly we need yet another review, yet another report, yet another panel, yet another task force.
Ahern is like an athlete who has used steroids. The record books will show victories and his performance in elections will look impressive. But there will always be an asterix beside his name and his ability to acquire and hold power will eventually be eclipsed by his inability to put it to good use.
He was perhaps the greatest politician the country has ever produced, And one of it's worst leaders.
-Rd
If any other member of the Fianna Fail front bench or parlimentary party was in this position, would you fire them/force them to resign?
The answer is an unequivocal yes, because Mr Ahern is the master of political expediency.
So why doesn't he fire himself/force himself to resign?
His judgement is clouded by a long held ambition to serve three full terms as taoiseach. He wants to win more elections than anyone else.
He wants to go down in history as the most succesful Taoiseach in the history of the country. But success in Mr Ahernes world is measured in polls, not progress. Winning the election is all that matters, reform of healthcare, building infrastructure, keeping inflation under control, keeping the country competitive, these are all secondary to winning elections.
When pressed on his failures Bertie and his fans will repeatedly fall back on The North. What a great job he did in the North. Well the agreement was almost 10 years ago, and Bertie didn't do it all by himself.
If Bertie was only capable of dealing with the North then he should have resigned as Taoiseach and appointed himself chief negotiator for the Irish Republic. Allow someone else look after the rest of the people who live in the part of the island that actually elected him.
Bertie Ahern has lied repeatedly to the Dail, the has employed double standards on an epic scale. He has gotten away with a lot of it by using a new language that he has developed in which the mismash of words that spew from him can't be understood, but asking for clarification makes you look like the stupid one.
On a personal level he's the reason I ended by support of Fianna Fail many many years ago. I joined Fianna Fail inspired by stories of what Sean LeMass achieved. I left because any party that could look up to Bertie Ahern wasn't the party for me.
Ahern is the Anti-Lemass. Lemass took a nation cripled by an isolationist attitude and no industrial base worth speaking of and transformed it into something that we're still reaping the rewards of.
Ahern took a country through the greatest economic boom in it's history and failed to translate that into improved services and infrastructure.
Even where he built infranstructure it was half assed, botched, and grossly over priced.
When we should have been propelled to a bright future we're stuck with a backwards nation that can't build two tram lines that connect or a tunnel big enough for todays trucks.
We build hospitals wards and leave them empty rather than commit to the annual spending required to staff and run them.
We introduce social housing programs in such a way that they serve only to increase the profits of the developers who fund Mr Ahern and his party.
Was it because of a lack of ability that we had these failures?
No. When the chips are down this government can deliver. Give them a golf tournament in Kildare and they'll build you a fantastic road, ahead of schedule.
But give them something more mundane like providing facilities for the people who live in the country year round, and have to move further and further from their work to afford somewhere to live, then suddenly we need yet another review, yet another report, yet another panel, yet another task force.
Ahern is like an athlete who has used steroids. The record books will show victories and his performance in elections will look impressive. But there will always be an asterix beside his name and his ability to acquire and hold power will eventually be eclipsed by his inability to put it to good use.
He was perhaps the greatest politician the country has ever produced, And one of it's worst leaders.
-Rd
Henny Penny
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I saw the interview with Brian Dobson last night ... all he needed was a bit of black eyeliner and he could have been mistaken for Princess Di.