Bertie Ahern: Good deal or bad deal for people of Ireland

[elefantfresh]

Dalton, i wish i could write like that.....

 

[Purple]

Great post DaltonR.
I've said it before; you should be writing for a living.

 

[Guest127]

great post.

 

[dodo]

no tax liability as it wasn't a gift but a loan then he intended to pay back.

Tax expert on prime Time last night said after 7 yrs if loan not paid back it becomes a gift, so then tax would be due, if this was England they would resign

 

[Superman]

Great post DaltonR.

 

[delgirl]

Great post DaltonR.

Ditto.

 

[Hibernicatio]

Dalton R - you have written exactly what I have been thinking. It is difficult to put thoughts into words but you have accomplished it.

My question is - What is our alternative??

Does anybody truly believe that there are any other realistic options out there to vote for? I strongly believe that there is no one (with a realistic chance of being in gov) that would behave any different when in power.

Is there an inherent cutehoorism in Irish society? There are a few people, and I mean a few people that I would really entrust power for the good of others, and even these people are not politico's.

Name one person, just one person who you think could lead this country without greed, prejudice or self gain for the good of everyone on this Island?

 

[liteweight]

Well we've heard what McDowell has to say on the subject! Yet another disappointment but no surprise...he chose survival over what's right. I welcomed Pat Rabitte pointing out that it's a long time since Bertie was, or indeed, has even rubbed shoulders with, the common man.

To say that his friends would not accept repayment is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Many moons ago I was in this position (but not for such an amount), I simply wrote a cheque, accompanied by a bottle of wine with a note insisting the cheque be cashed if the person in question wanted to preserve the friendship.

I believe Bertie paid these people back in kind. Playing the common, family man, worried about his kids, has sickened me!

 

[extopia]

I strongly believe that there is no one (with a realistic chance of being in gov) that would behave any different when in power.

I strongly believe that this is a defeatist attitude. There are always a number of "untested" candidates - independents, usually - on the ballot paper. It's up to us, the voters, to actually vote on the issues, whether the candidate has a realistic chance of winning or not. Electoral success is gained in small steps.

 

[Hibernicatio]

I strongly believe that this is a defeatist attitude. There are always a number of "untested" candidates - independents, usually - on the ballot paper. It's up to us, the voters, to actually vote on the issues, whether the candidate has a realistic chance of winning or not. Electoral success is gained in small steps.

Ok maybe I was a bit defeatist on that one, but I have to say I dont have much faith in any of the main political parties. There are WAY too many vested interests dictating policy, which especially applies to the building trade, and its soon to be borne out consequences.

There does not seem to be anyone new on the horizon, just the same old faces fighting for power.

But as you say the power is in the hands of the public, but I fear the public will always vote along traditional family lines, therefore keeping the status quo.

 

[extopia]

Bertie's continuous shoot-the-messenger references to "scurrilous leaks" remind me of the Simpsons:

Marge: "You swore to me you'd get this gun out of the house!"
Homer: "But Marge, I never in my wildest dreams thought you'd find out."

 

[Conan]

The whole Bertiegate controversary has at least clarified one point:

• We now know that Fianna Fail believe that businessmen supporting a Minister/Taoiseach's personal lifestyle to the extent of millions of Euro is wrong (ala CJH)
• That supporting a Minister's personal lifestyle to the extent of hundreds of thousands of euro is also wrong (ala Michael Lowry/ Ray Bourke etc))
• But that supporting a Taoiseach personal lifestyle to the extent of €50,000 is o.k.

So Bertie has "done the State some service" in at least setting the benchmark for an acceptable level of financial support. "But no more of that".

 

[sherib]

Just to be clear – I abhor cute h….ism and tax evasion (shown to be prevalent in Irish society) and have no allegiance to any political party. That said it is reasonable to ask how did someone capable of becoming the Taoiseach of this country get himself into the current mess which is miniscule in financial terms compared to those who have been and are still under investigation for financial misdemeanours. I hope it is acceptable to express an alternative viewpoint.

The origin of Mr Ahern’s “crime” for which he stands accused and convicted by a section of the population would appear to coincide with his marital breakdown and the financial implications of his separation. Since family law Courts are held in camera, no one knows the terms directed by the Judge in 1993. Given his obvious devotion to his family, is it not possible that in his desire to protect his family he contributed more to their support than that required by law thus leaving him, a Minister in the Government, homeless with less than the minimum required to maintain himself in a basic manner appropriate to his position? His style of dress did not reflect extravagance in those years – remember the anoraks?

Is it not the case than many men on separation from their spouses, evicted from the family home, find themselves in dire financial straits often living in bed-sitters. One can readily understand that his male friends rallied around to help him out temporarily. He had no other source of income unlike many Dail members e.g. teachers and others who retain their salaries and sources of income while TDs.

Yes, he was unwise not to repay the loan he received but is the current baying for blood warranted? He made a mistake, a human error, but does that outweigh an objective assessment of his service to this country? I am not aware that he has built up a private fortune from property etc during the Celtic Tigers years as have so many ordinary people who now, self righteously, demand “his head”. What did any of those people contribute to this country? In a Court of Law mitigating circumstances are often taken into account. Is the leader of this country not deserving of the same consideration? Or is Mr Ahern to be the scapegoat for the proven crimes committed by so many as evidenced in the Tribunals. Remember too the Minister in the Midlands forced to resign yet who has headed the poll ever since as an Independent.

The electorate will make its judgement of the Taoiseach and the Government in 2007. I think we call that democracy.

 

[Guest127]

as a minister of finance who found himself in great financial difficulty as a result of seperation/divorce and who was in the fortunate position of having flush friends and who had to know the predicament of others not so well endowed with friends so generous, he didnt exactly do much to help such financially strapped citizens in his various budgets. ( might this qualify as one of the one sentence posts?)

 

[liteweight]

Is it not the case than many men on separation from their spouses, evicted from the family home, find themselves in dire financial straits often living in bed-sitters. One can readily understand that his male friends rallied around to help him out temporarily. He had no other source of income unlike many Dail members e.g. teachers and others who retain their salaries and sources of income while TDs.

I thought Bertie kept the family home? There was never any fear of him ending up in a bedsit on his salary. Even at that time he earned a lot more than most of the population. Lucky him to have friends who could have a whip round for that amount and never look for it back! They did however, end up in nice little cushy numbers, in some instances. Anyway what about the 8K he admits to receiving for Q&A at dinners. He never declared this income. Yes, lots of people find themselves in financial difficulty during a separation but let one of them try using this as an excuse with the Taxman!!!

 

[Marion]

Hi Sherib

He had no other source of income unlike many Dail members e.g. teachers and others who retain their salaries and sources of income while TDs.

I think you might have forgotten to include:

"The Department deducts salary and pension contributions of a replacement temporary teacher, paying the difference to the TD or senator."

Marion

 

[Lumpsum]

Ahern is like an athlete who has used steroids. The record books will show victories and his performance in elections will look impressive. But there will always be an asterix beside his name and his ability to acquire and hold power will eventually be eclipsed by his inability to put it to good use.

He was perhaps the greatest politician the country has ever produced, And one of it's worst leaders.

-Rd

You're onto the core problem in Irish politics, which is that the largest party in the State, Fianna Fail, has no ambition for what it wants to do with power, except to use it to hold onto power in the future for itself and its associates. Bertie is, as you say, the master of this: A consummate politician devoid of political conviction.

But things are not as bleak as you suggest. Twenty years ago FF, FG and Labour got well over 90 per cent of the national vote between them. In 2002 they got around 75 per cent. In the seventies there were just a few TDs from outside these parties. Now their number is in the mid twenties. So traditional family/local allegiances are breaking down slowly.

Labour, the PDs, the Greens, even Sinn Fein, put forward things they want to do if they gain power. Michael McDowell and Michael D Higgins have one thing in common: Both want to change society. In contrast, FF and FG do focus group research to find out what the people want and then offer it to them. The public think crime is out of control? So FG produce posters showing the country descending into anarchy and suggest FG is deeply angry about this too. They think there are too many foreigners? So the Government gives them the citizenship referendum and proposes a "crackdown".

Of course McDowell and Rabbitte ran with this stuff too - they do voter research too - but their parties in general have a critique of Irish society and put forward proposals for real change. FF and FG are market research driven parties who stand for nothing - well for very little.

But let nobody say "they're all the same". They're not.

 

[liteweight]

Hi Sherib




I think you might have forgotten to include:

"The Department deducts salary and pension contributions of a replacement temporary teacher, paying the difference to the TD or senator."

Marion

I take your point here Marion, but temporary 'part time' teachers are not paid anything like a full time teacher. For example, they are only paid for the hours they work, which excludes all holidays etc. The TD, paying the part timer reaps the rewards of holiday pay (substantial) and full time hours.

 

[Marion]

I take your point here Marion

Grand!

Is McDowell waiting in the long grass?

Marion

 

[sherib]

Originally posted by Marion
Is McDowell waiting in the long grass?

No, he's terrified at the prospect of being put out to grass when/if he pulls the plug! Who'd want to be a politician when it's so comfortable being a critic?