Why Turkey?

Never been to turkey,although i saw it from rhodes.People really should holiday in a place a good few times, before even considering buying.
Now the weather outside is freezing and anybody going on holiday now would like nice sunny weather,except for the skiers.
Personally i don`t see much point in buying a holiday home....better to just book a package holiday.....at least one can go to different countries every year.
However if i was to buy a holiday home it would have to have winter sunshine,nice friendly people who aren`t begging all the time, the language and customs would have to be someway understandable.
Ideally i could travel there without visas or any restriction, and possibly work there if i wanted.
If i was really rich i could buy in thailand or australia or the caribbean....but i`m not and the costs of flights alone would be very high.
Of course property would be cheap in these locations and it might be a good idea to take 2 months holidays in the wintertime but again why buy, when one can rent.
Turkey might be all right for people with family/work connections or maybe for children born in the west of turkish parents who might be able to speak the lingo, or else people married to a turk.
I SUPPOSE THAT LEAVES SPAIN,PORTUGAL, AND ITALY.
I imagine that the canary islands would be good with year round sunshine,but have the extra 2 hrs flying and not connected to the mainland.
Most people buy without considering the need for resale,if they intend to use it as a holiday home.But if you know you have paid the "real local" price,then one can enjoy the home ,knowing one can always recoup the price on selling.
If buying as an out and out investment,people might consider would they buy a holiday home in donegal as an investment?.....unlikely to be able to rent year round.-
 
Auto again you are free to make your points but you make unsubstantiated claims without any evidence. "Turkish dying property boom" you say - yet still ranked No 1 for Total Returns, Capital Growth and Development Potential by the PwC Emerging Markets Survey - these are the facts, not some spurious conjecture. You say you are not xenophobic but what conclusions is one supposed to draw from such comment? Maybe the Irish investor is not interested - I wouldn't know - I live in the UK. What I do know is the average British investor certainly is, and in the scheme of global capital flows, it's what the UK does and think that influences global investor sentiment.

Plasticpaddy, you have some interesting comments but then go on to engage in a harsh critique of Turkey - a major drug trafficking centre? Again where's the evidence? And how different are such vices from the entrenched mafia politics which affect other Central and Eastern European Markets such as Poland? No emerging market is sanitary or sanitised - that is precisely why they often offer such development and growth potential.

I trust you are following the FT's experts in their recent coverage of Turkey and its governance. They have very little but praise for the AK party - I have no reason to doubt your claim this party have shut down social support structures but they must be doing something right or else they would not have earnt the unprecedented landslide they did, Kurds or no Kurds. But to paraphrase another post here - such matters are tangential to say the least to investment decisions. Read what the experts are saying about Turkey and you'll know why the City, from Merrill Lynch to Morgan Stanley, are getting so excited. But maybe that is all a world away from the average Irish investor (no xenephobia intended).
 
Sachs, I disagree with you on a lot of what you have to say. Indeed I find it hard to find any common ground with you at all :) . If you want to read and believe reports from such commercial interests as PwC then please do. Their analysis disagrees on a fundamental basis with less interested parties as to where the real growth potential lies in the eastern part of europe/middle east .

You guys in the UK really must get over this idea regarding what the Brits do the rest follow suit. I'm a graduate of a UK University. My life-long friend and best man is a guy from Suffolk. He's a great guy but he can't see beyond the M11.

The FT may indeed vaunt Turkey as a great place to invest. Indeed this in now way detracts from Turkey but it also by no means vets Turkey.

Apart from the lemmings that exist in any growing and properous economy then I think that you will find that there are a great deal of well informed investors stemming from the Emerald Isle.

I also think that in reading any of these posts on AMM then it is important to remember that everyone has one axe or another to grind. From the hooded real estate agent to the average joe-soap who bought an apartment somewhere abroad , everyone would like to feel that they have the inside track.

At the end of the day, regardless of which market you are interested in, then statistics will never vindicate you. The only way to decide on where to buy is to do the ground work and inform yourself as to the pros and cons of where you choose to invest.

Have a great Christmas
 
sachs said:
Auto again you are free to make your points but you make unsubstantiated claims without any evidence. "Turkish dying property boom" you say - yet still ranked No 1 for Total Returns, Capital Growth and Development Potential by the PwC Emerging Markets Survey - these are the facts, not some spurious conjecture.
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Sachs, with respect, you are not listening to a word I am saying. When I allude to the dying property boom in Turkey I am referring to the rash of coastal property that has been sold in the past two or three years to Irish and UK buyers. This lemming-like rush to what was perceived as good-value product because of spurious comparisons to property prices in Dublin or Manchester, and which was further sold as an opportunity ahead of EU membership, as well as the "rental guarantee" tag, is dying in the water as people wake up to realities. It is not dead, just has peaked and will die off over the next couple of years, at which stage some normality will come to the market and prices will drop to realistic levels. Anyone who bought at this year's or last year's prices will get badly stung.

The wider investment picture in Turkey is as it is anywhere else; there are opportunities everywhere if you know your market and have a plan and an exit strategy, as well as buying at or below the real market value. If however you rush to property exhibitions or on high-pressure inspection flights, and you buy something because it looks cheap compared to Killiney or Bramhall, and you take the word of some salesman who was recently selling cars or timeshares that the rent will pay te mortgage, then maybe you deserve all that is coming to you.

It is all too easy to dismiss a dissenting voice as racist or xenophobic. The reality is that the Turkish "investment" market, as generally understood in these islands by the small investor, is largely a junk-bond type operation. True, it is not quite as bad as Bulgaria (a country that also has opportunities if you know the ground), but it is far from being a suitable haven for anyone's mortgage top-up.

And a happy christmas to all posters, of whatever point of view.
 
A recurring thought when reading this board is why you lot (and I mean you Irish guys who can release equity in your homes) choose to buy property abroad without having done any groundwork.

There has to be a particular kind of mania which exists and which blinds you to the risks involved in such ventures.

To date I have read about locations as diverse as Cape Verde, Australia and Brasil. How many people amongst you actually have been to these places and how do you arrive at your analysis?

By the way my old mum is VERY pro-Turkey solely based on the fact that shes had 3 great holidays there. That doesn't mean shes's right though and in fact causes me much concern.

If she actually wanted to put money into Turkey then I'd fight her tooth-and-nail to persuade her otherwise.....

I'd say that she would be better off investing in France, Poland, the Baltic States or Romania. Subject, of course, to actually bloody going there too....
 
That's the sad bit from my point of view; at a time of unprecedented buying power in Ireland, when the average citizen has the capability to put away a substantial nest egg by investing this capabiliy wisely, what does he or she do? They rush into the arms of the companies and individuals marketing "the next big thing" without doing any research olr consideing their options or exit stragtegies wisely. Instead of using property investment to build substantial assets, they squander their spare cash on spurious deals in countries or in regions within countries that have no future as investment destinations.

It doesn't have to be like this. There is plenty of good product in the commercial and residential area in places like Spain, Hungary, the UK, Germany, Romania etc. Land invesments for instance, the investment vehicle of choice of many of the big players, are ignored by the small investor despite their attractiveness as long-term assets. I have said the following many times, but its simplicity eludes the majority of "investors" who prefer to throw their money away:

1. Buy where people are moving to, not moving from. In Europe, this means the cities that are showing growth; try London or Frankfort, or if these are too expensive go to good parts of Budapest or Cracow or other solid cities. Buy the best you can afford in the best area you can afford, and be prepared to wait up to ten years for good returns. Get what rent you can, and be prepared to have valley periods. If you can't get a tenant, drop your price or decorate, or both. Deal with good management companies, treat them with respect and be fair with them and they will tend to be fair with you. Don't try to be a "cute hoor", people can see throught this approach and it will not serve you well. Be honest and expect honesty.

2. If you want a holday home in Europe that you can use year-round, go to the south of Spain (or possibly Portugal, but the Atlantic is not as nice in wintertime). Buy in emerging or very solid areas at below market rates; this usually (although not always) means ignorig off-plan investments and buying good resale properties. Buy within about a hour of a well-served airport, so that you can get there at the drop of a hat if you gety a few days free. Forget rent in your calculations, if it arises just consider it a bonus.

3. Avoid like the plague any area where high pressure sales driven companies are operating, and be completely cynical about wild claims about capital gains or rental return. Be suspicious of anyone who can predict capital growth; if they can see the future, why are they still working as salesmen? If something is too good to be true, it usually is; if someone is selling a property that pays for itself, makes 20% annual gains, and leaves a surplus in the bank from the huge rentals, then why in earth would anyone sell such a golden goose? In other words, keep your money in your pocket instead of spending it on Bulgaria's Black Sea or Ski areas, on the Turkish coast, or in Dubai and Cape Verde, or any other miracle market. None of the succesful big time investors go to these places, so why should you?

Having said all that, the three card trick has been around since the middle ages, but it still catches people every time it is operated. There is no better sales tool than to prey on people's greed; it makes them blind to risk and leads them by the nose into buying something that they spend years regretting.
 
Auto, pretty good sense for the most part except that you include Krakow in places where people are moving to, but from local and EU figures there is a big exodus from the area and an extremely high vacancy rate.

I agree on the land bit, but most buyers want a place to holiday in too, and unless they stick a caravan on the sie or like camping, then land isn't going to do it, and the "big players" re ont interested in 1/4 or 1/2 acre sites (unless city/town centre) but 10-1,000acre landbanks.
 
almo said:
Auto, pretty good sense for the most part except that you include Krakow in places where people are moving to, but from local and EU figures there is a big exodus from the area and an extremely high vacancy rate.

I agree on the land bit, but most buyers want a place to holiday in too, and unless they stick a caravan on the sie or like camping, then land isn't going to do it, and the "big players" re ont interested in 1/4 or 1/2 acre sites (unless city/town centre) but 10-1,000acre landbanks.
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I believe that krakow can offer opportunities that are not readily available in Poland -- there is an outflow of people it is true, but the town centre is still a quality destination with a strong tourist market. If you can buy right there, it will do ok. Budapest is a better bet right enough, but many people prefer Poland to Hungary.

With regards to land, and more particularly the idea of mixing holiday home and investment, I have personally found that building land on the edges of good towns or in city suburban locations can give much better returns that residential property over time. These opportunities are the usual preserve of large investors, but there are plenty of places where the smaller player can emulate the big boys and pick up nice building plots that will come good as a town or city grows around them. You can certainly get such opportunities in Hungary and in Romania (from about 30 or 40K upwards), and these have the added advantage that you don't have to worry about renting or furnishing or any of the other headaches that go with residential property. Good way to put a few euro away for ten years and forget about it, with a nice nest egg quietly accumulating for you.

On the issue of holiday home/investment property, there is no real way to mix the two. If you buy an investment property or a piece of land in a city destination, forget about any personal use -- it is only complicating the issue. If you buy a holiday home for your own use, try to buy a place that will easily resell and buy it at or below market price. In that way, you will realise a gain if you sell it, and you will get years of enjoyment and pleasure from it. Never just buy a place because you love it; look at the realities and remember that your circumastances may change and you may want to or have to sell it in the future. Homes bought purely for holiday use can actually prove very good investments if you think before you act. Thinking, in my view and from my observations, includes staying away from the Bulgarian and Turkish holiday home markets!
 
30-40k is a lot to stick in land in a foreign country, especially in rather difficult markets like the two you mentioned. Most clients our guys deal with (from the non player part of the market) look for 4-10k, with that there's a multitude of property to be bought in more accessible markets (although Hungary thanks to direct flights is better than before) with better weather and location (Slovenia is one that is rather tasty at the moment).

While I believe Turkey is not for me, it has by far the best coastline in the Med, with a terrific hinterland and a lot to see and do, Bulgaria is a little rough, but with some amazing scenery and money flowing into it, whether it stays long term is down to the continued development of tourism there, though it's pointed that the Russian market has now begun to move away.
 
As someone who was keen on buying in Turkey this year this thread has certainly opened my eyes. Some very interesting views from both sides.
 
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