Key Post Why Bitcoin has value

[tecate]

It has failed in its primary use case, some have seen utility in an alternative use as a store of value. Any layer 2 solution I've seen requires you to transact out of Bitcoin, so it's not bitcoin.

Firstly, new technology finds its use cases over the duration. Secondly, as others before you have done, you've closed the case on a technology and eco-system that remains very much in development. Lightning Network will go some of the way towards the use case you're talking about. Building out the tech so that its easier to use will facilitate that and other use cases. as regards layer 2, I don't tend to get my knickers in a twist over it as some do. It's being built on top of the bitcoin blockchain network. As regards some of the criticisms that are being thrown at layer 2 solutions, that's completely premature. It's still in development.

So the US economy is being totally mismanaged? It all goes back to the Antonopoulos position, it makes some sense in basket case or despotic regimes, neither apply here.

Well, I could engage in your tedium and semantics that were evident heretofore - because I don't recall suggesting that the U.S. economy was mismanaged....but I won't in the interests of a free flowing discussion.

Yes, I agree completely with the Antonopoulos line. There's a big old world out there and whilst Bitcoin has relevance for all of it, some jurisdictions offer more immediate and obvious disposition towards it. I live in a country where the local currency is denominated in the 1000's. Ergo there was financial mismanagement. In advanced economies, monetary policy mistakes have been made. If we can improve upon that, we should. Performance in a whole host of sectors tends to improve where there's a bit of competition. Why should this be any different?

However, there are a whole host of countries where there has been total financial mismanagement. I certainly think that it would be great for citizens to have another option outside of that madness. Furthermore, the very presence of such an option may deter some of that financial malpractice from happening in the first place.

Because of its position in the world, the dollar is probably the safest of a bad lot for the foreseeable. That said, Wolfe Tone is correct about the insane debt levels. Don't expect things to stay the same forever - that's not the way the world works. Other than that, the USD - just like every other FIAT currency is stealthily relieving value from ordinary people every second that passes as the printing presses continue to devalue currencies.

Additionally, if it's not something that affects a eurozone country like Ireland, why are the European's getting their knickers in a twist over Facebook's Libra? Why are they talking of banning it and of issuing their own Eurocoin? If there is no use case for anything except sovereign currency, then why would they bat an eyelid?

Besides all of that, you don't see the value in having a bank in your phone or on a cold storage device - which is fine. That's where we disagree and there are plenty of others in the world that share my view.

 

[Leo]

Firstly, new technology finds its use cases over the duration.

I very specifically referenced Bitcoin, not the underlying technology.

Secondly, as others before you have done, you've closed the case on a technology and eco-system that remains very much in development.

As stated earlier in this thread, and others, I haven't.

as regards layer 2, I don't tend to get my knickers in a twist over it as some do. It's being built on top of the bitcoin blockchain network. As regards some of the criticisms that are being thrown at layer 2 solutions, that's completely premature. It's still in development.

That's true, it is early days. But saying it's being built on top of the bitcoin blockchain is a little like saying a caravan parked beside a 5 star hotel is built onto the hotel. Once you transfer bitcoin to a layer 2 solution, it's no longer on the blockchain, it is managed in a completely separate system, without all the benefits of immutability and the publicly auditable ledger. Layer 2 protocols will be a much easier target for the APT groups.

Well, I could engage in your tedium and semantics that were evident heretofore - because I don't recall suggesting that the U.S. economy was mismanaged....but I won't in the interests of a free flowing discussion.

You said:

Remember, if people actually go to the trouble of considering an alternative, then a country's sovereign currency and finances have been totally mismanaged.

As such a large volume of Bitcoin has been bought by US residents, then we have to acknowledge that many there have considered it, you claim doing so means their economy has been totally mismanaged.

Besides all of that, you don't see the value in having a bank in your phone or on a cold storage device - which is fine. That's where we disagree and there are plenty of others in the world that share my view.

No one has a bank on their phone, I do have a banking app though, and it works really well. I can buy pretty much anything I want from pretty much any physical or online store with almost instant transaction confirmations. For something to replace that, it's going to have to offer me something better.

I also have a cold storage device, but I have little need for cash as my debit and credit cards are so easy to use. I also prefer to keep my assets under management where they are guaranteed by the state.

What value would holding crypto offer me in terms of day to day banking?

 

[Leo]

For anyone keen to get into crypto in a big way, Wilsons Auctions are holding the latest auction of seized cryptos next week. ~£500,000 of Bitcoin, Ethereum, Ripple and more in multiple lots.

 

[Firefly]

What value would holding crypto offer me in terms of day to day banking?

You can convert it to real money anytime you like...how cool is that?

 

[tecate]

I very specifically referenced Bitcoin, not the underlying technology.

Indeed you did - and I am referencing Bitcoin as a new technology (and yes, i can use the word relative to blockchain or Bitcoin).

As stated earlier in this thread, and others, I haven't.

Your statement that Bitcoin isn't fit for purpose didn't seem to come with an acknowledgement of ongoing tech (Bitcoin and Bitcoin related) development (in the sense that it's fluid and ongoing).

That's true, it is early days. But saying it's being built on top of the bitcoin blockchain is a little like saying a caravan parked beside a 5 star hotel is built onto the hotel. Once you transfer bitcoin to a layer 2 solution, it's no longer on the blockchain, it is managed in a completely separate system, without all the benefits of immutability and the publicly auditable ledger. Layer 2 protocols will be a much easier target for the APT groups.

I don't think your analogy is fitting. Of course there are differences - but there will be differences in terms of when someone would use layer 1 as opposed to layer 2. Every starbucks coffee purchase may not need to be on layer 1. Yes, there may be trade offs - but we will have to wait and see.

As such a large volume of Bitcoin has been bought by US residents, then we have to acknowledge that many there have considered it, you claim doing so means their economy has been totally mismanaged.

I didn't reference the US relative to your quotes and statement above - you did. Other than that, you are misinterpreting my use of the word 'alternative' in the context it was provided.

No one has a bank on their phone,

You do if you custody your own wealth through it. You don't do that with the 'banking app' you mention. If you don't see value in custodying your own funds, so be it. I do - as do many others.

I also have a cold storage device, but I have little need for cash as my debit and credit cards are so easy to use. I also prefer to keep my assets under management where they are guaranteed by the state.

As above - you don't see value in self custody - but that's your own deal. How has that worked out for countless thousands worldwide - from Cyprus, Greece, and a whole host of other countries where funds were either confiscated by the state or the bank went bust. How close were Anglo account holders to that? A hairs breath apparently. Noonan followed up with pinching people's pension money instead (after a lead up of a few years where .gov were running campaigns to remind people how important it was to start a pension). Do you have a pension fund guarantee also?

What value would holding crypto offer me in terms of day to day banking?

Over the long haul, sound money. Unconfiscatable money. Money that isn't constantly having its value eroded via QE and inflation.

You can convert it to real money anytime you like...how cool is that?

You know as much as you know, Firefly. You can expand on that understanding - OR - (as seems to be happening with a few here) double down on the naysaying. It'll all come out in the wash.

 

[Leo]

Indeed you did - and I am referencing Bitcoin as a new technology (and yes, i can use the word relative to blockchain or Bitcoin).

Bitcoin is an application of technology, calling it a technology is a misnomer.

Your statement that Bitcoin isn't fit for purpose didn't seem to come with an acknowledgement of ongoing tech (Bitcoin and Bitcoin related) development (in the sense that it's fluid and ongoing).

I've said it multiple times. Why does my not repeating that at every opportunity suggest I've changed my mind?

Every starbucks coffee purchase may not need to be on layer 1. Yes, there may be trade offs - but we will have to wait and see.

So any transaction solely leveraging a layer 2 protocol doesn't involve the bitcoin blockchain, It loses that immutability and openess in order to cludge a solution to the volume limitations.

I didn't reference the US relative to your quotes and statement above - you did. Other than that, you are misinterpreting my use of the word 'alternative' in the context it was provided.

I quoted exactly what you said, so what is it now? If someone even considers buying Bitcoin then their economy must be totally mismanaged (or something else

You do if you custody your own wealth through it.

That's only part of what a bank is. Even using cryptos, you do not custody your own wealth on your phone, you use an app on your phone to interact with the crypto ecosystem. The entire system does not reside on your phone.

Over the long haul, sound money. Unconfiscatable money. Money that isn't constantly having its value eroded via QE and inflation.

Money I can't spend anywhere where I want to buy thing. Super!

 

[tecate]

Bitcoin is an application of technology, calling it a technology is a misnomer.

Devling back into obtusivity101/semantics101 I see.
Blockchain is an over arching technology. Bitcoin blockchain technology also stands. You can slice it and dice it any which way you want. I was referring to Bitcoin blockchain technology. It's not a misnomer.

I've said it multiple times. Why does my not repeating that at every opportunity suggest I've changed my mind?

Commentary was on the statement you made and that statement was to the effect that you had made your mind up on Bitcoin - despite it (encompassing Bitcoin, its eco-system and developments such as LN) being a technology in development.

So any transaction solely leveraging a layer 2 protocol doesn't involve the bitcoin blockchain, It loses that immutability and openess in order to cludge a solution to the volume limitations.

There is some discussion as to the level of compromise that is or will be (as it evolves) involved with LN. You refer to 'cludge' - some of us see it as an innovative solution. All in the eyes of the beholder and the perspective (or lack of it) which they approach the subject with. As stated earlier, LN and layer 1 - will be available for people to use depending on the use case/circumstance. Those use cases/circumstances will vary. It doesn't have to be a one size fits all solution. That's even if a one size fits all solution is possible - most likely it's not. There will always be trade offs...just as other projects have emerged with the objective of addressing some of Bitcoin's shortcomings - they themselves come up short in other areas.

As stated before, the purchase of a cup of Starbucks coffee most likely doesn't need to be on layer 1. Trying to say that one doesn't have anything to do with the other is also incorrect when one will very much complement the other.

I quoted exactly what you said, so what is it now? If someone even considers buying Bitcoin then their economy must be totally mismanaged (or something else

You most certainly did not. I didn't mention the US in that context and I'll underscore that word once more as you don't seem to have gotten it at the 2nd time of asking - CONTEXT.

That's only part of what a bank is.

Oh, please. The custody of and ability to transmit money is at the core of what a bank does. That there have been a wide variety of bolt on services offered wasn't what was being considered here and well you know it. As an aside, some of those additional services are also emerging within the cryptocurrency eco-system.

You do not custody your own wealth on your phone, you use an app on your phone to interact with the crypto ecosystem. The entire system does not reside on your phone.

Well you don't say, Leo - really? Semantics much? I never suggested for a second that the 'entire system' resided on my phone.
I've borrowed the language of Antonopoulos in this regard - he and others refer to it - as short hand i.e. self custody is facilitated by bitcoin blockchain technology. It can be accessed via software provided on a phone or other device. Any amount of semantics from yourself isn't going to change the fact.

Money I can't spend anywhere where I want to buy thing. Super!

Firstly, that in NO way combats the point I made - and the reason it doesn't Leo - is because you can't. You can't argue with the fact that it's sound money. You can't argue with the fact that Q.E. and inflation are robbing ordinary people of the value they hold in their Euro or USD wallets or bank accounts every second of every minute.
As regards all you can muster being that 'you can't spend it anywhere' - you can spend it in plenty of places. Practically all you will ever need is available on Amazon and you can use Bitcoin to buy anything you want on Amazon. Try that for starters.

 

[Leo]

Devling back into obtusivity101/semantics101 I see.
Blockchain is an over arching technology. Bitcoin blockchain technology also stands. You can slice it and dice it any which way you want. I was referring to Bitcoin blockchain technology. It's not a misnomer.

I'm trying to be accurate. The correct usage of terms is important in discussions such as this, otherwise the point you are trying to make is likely to be misconstrued or misinterpreted. If you want to talk about blockchain as a technology, in order to make that clear to everyone, talk about blockchain, and don't talk about one specific implementation of the technology. The terms blockchain and Bitcoin are as interchangeable as car and Trabant. If I want to talk about computers, I won't refer to the Commodore VIC 20 then when challenged claim I was talking about computers overall and try to bring the Cray XC40 into it.

Commentary was on the statement you made and that statement was to the effect that you had made your mind up on Bitcoin - despite it (encompassing Bitcoin, its eco-system and developments such as LN) being a technology in development.

My statement was clear, not much I can do about you're choosing to read more into it than is there. Current and proposed development considered, my position is unchanged.

You most certainly did not. I didn't mention the US in that context and I'll underscore that word once more as you don't seem to have gotten it at the 2nd time of asking - CONTEXT.

I did. it was a direct quote. Again, for clarity you said:

Remember, if people actually go to the trouble of considering an alternative, then a country's sovereign currency and finances have been totally mismanaged.

True, you didn't specify the US, but you also didn't offer any qualification on the statement. There is NOTHING in the context of what you actually typed to suggest there might be criteria under which your claim would not apply, let alone clarity on what those criteria might be. If you intend to limit the scope of claims, you need to call it out, and not just try to revise after the fact.

Oh, please. The custody of and ability to transmit money is at the core of what a bank does.

You forgot offering loans, that is a basic tenet of what defines a bank.

Well you don't say, Leo - really? Semantics much? I never suggested for a second that the 'entire system' resided on my phone.

You said you 'custody your own wealth through it'. Custody has a very clear definition in finance, let's not call correcting your inaccurate statements semantics.

You can't argue with the fact that it's sound money.

Money is something you can exchange for goods and services. Having reviewed my spending records for the past year, not one of the places I spent money with accept bitcoin. In that regard it fails a pretty basic test.

As regards all you can muster being that 'you can't spend it anywhere' - you can spend it in plenty of places. Practically all you will ever need is available on Amazon and you can use Bitcoin to buy anything you want on Amazon. Try that for starters.

I just did, Amazon don't give me an option to use bitcoin or any other crypto.

The crypto cafe that opened on Geroge's St. at the peak of the hype cycle didn't last too long. A few other cafes and shops advertised accepting cryptos around that time also, but in almost all cases they had just installed bitcoin ATMs that people could use to convert their bitcoin into Euro to pay their Euro denominated bills. Most of these have been decommissioned, and CoinATMRadar now just lists 6 locations across all of Ireland, of those, only a single on allows you to withdraw Euro, all the others just allow you to buy Bitcoin or Ethereum, a couple also support Litecoin. Reports from users of these say there's a €1.50 transaction charge for use of the ATM, larger transactions require you to hand over passport or driving license to staff in the shop, and after that, transactions take around 5 minutes to complete.

 

[tecate]

I'm trying to be accurate. The correct usage of terms is important in discussions such as this, otherwise the point you are trying to make is likely to be misconstrued or misinterpreted. If you want to talk about blockchain as a technology, in order to make that clear to everyone, talk about blockchain, and don't talk about one specific implementation of the technology. The terms blockchain and Bitcoin are as interchangeable as car and Trabant. If I want to talk about computers, I won't refer to the Commodore VIC 20 then when challenged claim I was talking about computers overall and try to bring the Cray XC40 into it.

Leo, I'm not going to respond well to demands or instructions. I was talking about Bitcoin blockchain technology and I clarified that was what I was talking about. That;s where it ends. If you want to use other terminology that's up to yourself.
As regards trying to be accurate, it comes across as pedanticism.

My statement was clear, not much I can do about you're choosing to read more into it than is there. Current and proposed development considered, my position is unchanged.

Yes, I agree that your statement is unambiguous (in not suggesting there is any caveat in terms of current or future development). Your clarification here is premature as you have no earthly way of determining with accuracy the end product of LN or future Bitcoin BIPs.

I did. it was a direct quote. Again, for clarity you said:

Right - and where in that statement did I refer to the US, Leo? Where?

True, you didn't specify the US, but you also didn't offer any qualification on the statement. There is NOTHING in the context of what you actually typed to suggest there might be criteria under which your claim would not apply, let alone clarity on what those criteria might be. If you intend to limit the scope of claims, you need to call it out, and not just try to revise after the fact.

I need to do no such thing. If there is anything you are unclear about, you can just ask (rather than trying to score points). I used the phrase "considering an alternative'. People speculate all day long but that's not considering an alternative to FIAT....ergo your US example is null and void.

You forgot offering loans, that is a basic tenet of what defines a bank.

I forgot no such thing. I - and well you know this - was referring to the ability to transmit money electronically without that involving a centralised third party. I was also referring to the ability to self custody ones own wealth.
It's beside the point but seeing as you bring it up, over the past 12-18 months, a whole host of services have emerged to place crypto on deposit at savings rates of approx. 6% or to borrow based on crypto holdings.

You said you 'custody your own wealth through it'. Custody has a very clear definition in finance, let's not call correcting your inaccurate statements semantics.

It IS very much semantics and pedantry. Lets be very clear about that Leo. Self custody of funds is a central tenant of decentralised crypto. That ability is extended through mobile installed software.

Money is something you can exchange for goods and services. Having reviewed my spending records for the past year, not one of the places I spent money with accept bitcoin. In that regard it fails a pretty basic test.

Sure, it does for YOU. Then don't use it.
Amazon don't officially support it as a means of payment yet I can use Bitcoin to pay for anything I want to buy on Amazon. Go figure.
You said you can't use it - although I doubt you're trying too hard to use it - as you don't want it to succeed. And that's fine. There are and will be plenty of us that can and will - whether that be as payment, a means of cross border transfer, as internet money or as a store of value.

I just did, Amazon don't give me an option to use bitcoin or any other crypto.

I never said that Amazon officially support Bitcoin. However, you can buy whatever you want on that platform via Bitcoin.

The crypto cafe that opened on Geroge's St. at the peak of the hype cycle didn't last too long. A few other cafes and shops advertised accepting cryptos around that time also, but in almost all cases they had just installed bitcoin ATMs that people could use to convert their bitcoin into Euro to pay their Euro denominated bills. Most of these have been decommissioned, and CoinATMRadar now just lists 6 locations across all of Ireland, of those, only a single on allows you to withdraw Euro, all the others just allow you to buy Bitcoin or Ethereum, a couple also support Litecoin. Reports from users of these say there's a €1.50 transaction charge for use of the ATM, larger transactions require you to hand over passport or driving license to staff in the shop, and after that, transactions take around 5 minutes to complete.

A couple of things...
- To my knowledge, Bitcove are actively installing Bitcoin ATM's in Ireland. There are active roll outs of ATMs in North America - most recently through Coinme - who have over 2,600 Bitcoin ATM's in the US right now - whilst rolling out more. As regards not being able to withdraw Euro, so what? ATM installs can involve a one way or two way model. Naturally, there are insurance and security implications with 2 way. The issue has been in making BTC accessible to a wider public and one way ATM's achieve that. Not sure where you're going with that.
I live in South America - and Paxful & Coinlogiq are actively installing ATM's there.

In terms of the €1.50 cost, so what? I used my debit card at the ATM of a retail bank in North America in recent days and was charged $3 for the pleasure. I suspect that rates of exchange at Bitcoin ATMs won't be all too attractive either - but what would you expect? In fairness to the providers, there are considerable costs involved. For the users that are being targeted, these are not people already active in the crypto world. They are new-comers. For that reason, such rollouts are important. These folks don't expect to get the best rates. However, if they become more active, the usual scenario is that they move onto crypto exchanges or peer to peer exchanges such as Hodl Hold or Local Bitcoins.

Additionally, the first bank has emerged in Europe which facilitates the holding of both Euro (as per a regular bog standard bank account) and crypto side by side. Whilst Germany based, a Bitwala bank account is available to Irish residents (and residents of most European countries). The debit card that comes with the account can be funded with euro or crypto.

As regards your point about larger transactions and Bitcoin ATMs, firstly that's due to this KYC/AML nonsense, that's nothing to do with cryptocurrency or the crypto eco-system and everything to do with the conventional system. ATM operators have to abide by regulation despite how wayward it is. Crypto adoption would be so much further on if it wasn't for this sham....and it is a sham. This nonsense is all about financial surveillance and nothing to do with fighting money laundering. If you need to launder money, all that is required is a banking license.

Fines paid for Money Laundering Activities in Recent Times
Wachovia - $160m
Deutsche Bank - $670m
Bank of Australia - $700m
ING - $900m
Citigroup - $237m
Standard Chartered - $967m
Commerzbank - $1.45b
HSBC - $1.9b
JPMorgan - $2.05b

Oh, and just in case you need to ship 20 tonnes of Coca, JPMorgan will be able to help you out with logistics.


Other than that, why would there be a need to do large transactions by way of a Bitcoin ATM - when you can move on to other means that are more cost effective?

On transaction time, yes there's an issue there - and that's why lightning network is being developed.

 

[Leo]

Leo, I'm not going to respond well to demands or instructions. I was talking about Bitcoin blockchain technology and I clarified that was what I was talking about. That;s where it ends. If you want to use other terminology that's up to yourself.
As regards trying to be accurate, it comes across as pedanticism.

Call it pedantry if you will, but the difference between a technology and one example of the implementation of that technology is fundamental to the understanding of your point.

Your clarification here is premature as you have no earthly way of determining with accuracy the end product of LN or future Bitcoin BIPs.

I clearly said current or proposed developments. It's pretty clear I did not refer to future developments that may come.

Right - and where in that statement did I refer to the US, Leo? Where?

You said 'if people actually go to the trouble of considering an alternative, then a country's sovereign currency and finances have been totally mismanaged.' Can we both agree that lots of people in the US have considered bitcoin? Indeed many of them have gone further and have purchased bitcoin, right? So your argument states that their economy has been mismanaged.

I need to do no such thing. If there is anything you are unclear about, you can just ask (rather than trying to score points). I used the phrase "considering an alternative'.

So you can throw out broad generalisations, then when challenged pretend that you meant something else. The issue isn't that you were unclear, it is that the statement was very clear, but also it was incorrect, and only when that was pointed out did you try to suggest there was context where there wasn't and you meant something significantly different from what you said.

I never said that Amazon officially support Bitcoin. However, you can buy whatever you want on that platform via Bitcoin.

Hold on, you said:

Practically all you will ever need is available on Amazon and you can use Bitcoin to buy anything you want on Amazon. Try that for starters.

Maybe I'm just being pedantic again, but to me, buying something on Amazon, means buying it on Amazon, like actually via the Amazon website or app. So now buying on Amazon is not buying on Amazon, but is just buying anything that Amazon might sell, but via someone else? So where is this place? Let's take an example of an item I bought recently, where can I buy an [broken link removed]? Point me to a place that sells that for bitcoin? Does that place cost the same or less and offer similar delivery and customer support?

- Bitcove are actively installing Bitcoin ATM's in Ireland. There are active roll outs of ATMs in North America - most recently through Coinme - who have over 2,600 Bitcoin ATM's in the US right now - whilst rolling out more.

Ah, so there are now 8, still only one with the ability to withdraw. So I can go out of my way to find one of these to buy bitcoin and head online to the dark web to try and spend it.

As regards not being able to withdraw Euro, so what?

I don't know about you, but to me, one of the highlights of money is being able to buy stuff with it. I like stuff!

 

[tecate]

Call it pedantry if you will, but the difference between a technology and one example of the implementation of that technology is fundamental to the understanding of your point.

Once I provided the clarification of "Bitcoin blockchain technology" - there was no other possibility for misunderstanding. Bitcoin blockchain technology is a subset of the overarching blockchain technology.

I clearly said current or proposed developments. It's pretty clear I did not refer to future developments that may come.

This is what you said:

My research has verified that Bitcoin isn't fit for purpose, and so is doomed.

That's pretty unambiguous as a statement. I agree that you are not taking account of future developments. You're not taking account of current developments either as we will get on to..

You also said this =>

The 7tps limit has been verified. .

And what of Segwit? 100% Segwit adoption means a 100% improvement.
What of Schnorr Signatures? Expect a further 25-30% improvement on TPS rate.
What about layer 0? (Bloxroute).
What about MAST?

Again, there's no consideration of current or future improvements. With that attitude and approach, how could you possibly come to any other conclusion other than "Bitcoin is doomed". The internet suffered scaling issues for years. It took a long time to deal with. I'm currently dealing with internet scaling issues via crap bandwidth. Umpteen years on and that's still being worked on.

You said 'if people actually go to the trouble of considering an alternative, then a country's sovereign currency and finances have been totally mismanaged.' Can we both agree that lots of people in the US have considered bitcoin? Indeed many of them have gone further and have purchased bitcoin, right? So your argument states that their economy has been mismanaged.

Eh, last time I checked my thoughts were my own, Leo. This latest exchange was spurred by post #110 - referencing Nic Carter's Medium post and this quote from him:

"You may deride Bitcoin, no matter. Bitcoin will be there for you when you need it. You may not need it now; you may not need it ever"...BUT..." you may one day feel comfort knowing that the world’s highest assurance wealth protection system in history is waiting patiently for you."

When I stated "considering an alternative", I mean't people actively spurred into action due to a failing FIAT currency. If a currency is suffering from rampant inflation, then its clear that "a country's sovereign currency and finances have been totally mismanaged".

So you can throw out broad generalisations, then when challenged pretend that you meant something else.

I've done no such thing. See above.

you try to suggest there was context where there wasn't and you meant something significantly different from what you said.

Lies.

and only when that was pointed out did you try to suggest there was context where there wasn't and you meant something significantly different from what you said.

Stop and think for a second, perhaps. See the quote referenced from Carter that spurred on this most recent part of the discussion and it's as clear as night and day as to the context within which I referred to 'considering an alternative'.

Maybe I'm just being pedantic again, but to me, buying something on Amazon, means buying it on Amazon, like actually via the Amazon website or app. So now buying on Amazon is not buying on Amazon, but is just buying anything that Amazon might sell, but via someone else? So where is this place? Let's take an example of an item I bought recently, where can I buy an [broken link removed]? Point me to a place that sells that for bitcoin? Does that place cost the same or less and offer similar delivery and customer support?

I said that I could buy anything on Amazon using Bitcoin and that statement is 100% fact. I didn't think for a discussion here I need to write terms and conditions for everything. I'm quite happy to explain anything I've written to anyone who asks respectfully (and even those that go about it in other ways).

LINK

You are buying directly from Amazon and Amazon merchants even though Amazon and Amazon merchants are not receiving BTC. Your consumer rights are the same as they would be ordinarily. So, you can buy your Aeotec Bypass and 353 million other products with Bitcoin via Amazon / Amazon Marketplace. I know you struggle to believe that this works so I'd suggest a https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pedantic-Notebook-Large-Ruled-Pages/dp/172215912X/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=pedantic&qid=1568920441&s=books&sr=1-2 (test purchase) just to put you at ease.

That is a prime example of technological development within the Bitcoin eco-system - bringing workable solutions to the consumer. Next year, they expect to extend that functionality to virtually every e-commerce platform regardless of whether they accept Bitcoin or not.

If that doesn't please you, a very rudimentary web search found that item in online webshops based in Holland, Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia and Ukraine - who all accept Bitcoin.

I don't know about you, but to me, one of the highlights of money is being able to buy stuff with it. I like stuff!

And your point is nonsense. Bitcoin ATM's extend the reach of Bitcoin - making it available to more people. Perhaps you're a tad confused about which came first but just as a refresher, FIAT currency is widely available. Therefore, the main need for Bitcoin ATMs is to deliver Bitcoin - not euros!

 

[Leo]

Once I provided the clarification of "Bitcoin blockchain technology" - there was no other possibility for misunderstanding. Bitcoin blockchain technology is a subset of the overarching blockchain technology.

Bitcoin blockchain technology isn't a subset of blockchain technology. It's an application of blockchain technology. Other cryptos use applications of the exact same technology.

The point was very specific to bitcoin, and its failure to meet its design purpose as a currency. You seem to want to confuse that point by bringing in other cryptos, current and future. Different point completely.

And what of Segwit? 100% Segwit adoption means a 100% improvement.
What of Schnorr Signatures? Expect a further 25-30% improvement on TPS rate.
What about layer 0? (Bloxroute).
What about MAST?

Come back to me when they're hitting 100,000tps with sub second end-to-end confirmation. 100% improvement on next to nothing is still next to nothing.

The internet suffered scaling issues for years.

The internet doesn't have such limitations built into its core, bandwidth limitations are not designed in.

Eh, last time I checked my thoughts were my own, Leo. This latest exchange was spurred by post #110 - referencing Nic Carter's Medium post and this quote from him:

After the nonsense in the original article posted, I won't be wasting my time reading anything else he has to say.

When I stated "considering an alternative", I mean't people actively spurred into action due to a failing FIAT currency.

So considered means actually taking action, not just having considered something? Regardless, residents of the US and other relatively stable and what appear to be well run economies are buying bitcoin, but your logic suggests they're all mismanaged.

You are buying directly from Amazon and Amazon merchants even though Amazon and Amazon merchants are not receiving BTC. Your consumer rights are the same as they would be ordinarily. So, you can buy your Aeotec Bypass and 353 million other products with Bitcoin via Amazon / Amazon Marketplace. I know you struggle to believe that this works so I'd suggest a https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pedantic-Notebook-Large-Ruled-Pages/dp/172215912X/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=pedantic&qid=1568920441&s=books&sr=1-2 (test purchase) just to put you at ease.

That's hilarious! So I can use bitcoin to buy anything on Amazon, but in effect, what I'm doing is sending bitcoin to a 3rd party who will then connect with another party (Coinbase) and then pay it to Amazon via the conventional banking system. Now that is the future right there.

Also, using that method I lose the valuable protections offered by credit or debit card providers if my goods don't show up, those protections will now just be limited to the transaction between myself and Moon. And even that is limited by the lack of regulation around crypto.

If that doesn't please you, a very rudimentary web search found that item in online webshops based in Holland, Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia and Ukraine - who all accept Bitcoin.

Can you share some links? Maybe my Google search skills need some tuning, but I was unable to find any. Focussing on the Netherlands, I did find hashop.nl who carry a lot of the Aeotec range, but alas not the bypass device. But you can't have meant them anyway as they only deliver to the Benelux countries and Germany, and despite advertising that they accept bitcoin, do not offer any means of using them in the checkout process.

And your point is nonsense. Bitcoin ATM's extend the reach of Bitcoin - making it available to more people. Perhaps you're a tad confused about which came first but just as a refresher, FIAT currency is widely available. Therefore, the main need for Bitcoin ATMs is to deliver Bitcoin - not euros!

Well my point is if I had bitcoin, I'd want to spend them on things. Most of the businesses here that advertise having bitcoin ATMs don't actually accept bitcoin payment themselves. If I wanted to use my bitcoin to pay for something there, I had assumed the ATMs they were operating would allow convert and withdraw Euro, but alas they don't.

Why do we even need bitcoin ATMs to buy bitcoin? Is it a bit archaic that such advanced technology isn't all online? Or is the ability to repeatedly lodge cash a handy way to hide the proceeds of black market or worse activity?

The argument on AML/KYC is also nonsense. You find it 'absurd', it doesn't prevent 100% of illegal activity. Speed limits and road traffic legislation don't prevent hundreds of deaths and thousands of injuries on our roads. By your logic we should also scrap all that.

And no confusion on what came first, I'm just sensing the dip in the bitcoin hype cycle. Technology adoption rates have accelerated massively over recent years, Bitcoin is lagging at this point.[/QUOTE]

 

[Firefly]

Once I provided the clarification of "Bitcoin blockchain technology" - there was no other possibility for misunderstanding. Bitcoin blockchain technology is a subset of the overarching blockchain technology.

Up until now I believe we were discussing the value, if any, of the Bitcoin CURRENCY rather than the underlying blockchain technology. I think lumping them together at this point in the debate is misleading and I can't help but think you are doing it to help justify your belief in Bitcoin

I said that I could buy anything on Amazon using Bitcoin and that statement is 100% fact. I didn't think for a discussion here I need to write terms and conditions for everything. I'm quite happy to explain anything I've written to anyone who asks respectfully (and even those that go about it in other ways).

LINK

Again I find this misleading. You are not using Bitcoin to buy anything on Amazon, you are first converting it to FIAT!! It's a bit like me saying I can buy anything I like on Amazon using my collection of stamps. First I need to convert them to real money.

Indeed all that's happened is the addition of an extra hop in the transaction. What's the point of this?

 

[tecate]

Bitcoin blockchain technology isn't a subset of blockchain technology. It's an application of blockchain technology. Other cryptos use applications of the exact same technology.

I disagree and we won't be agreeing so I suggest you drop it. There are 605,000 results for 'bitcoin blockchain technology' - by all means take issue with all of them if you wish. As regards 'Bitcoin blockchain technology' being a 'subset' - (subset meaning ' a part of a larger group of related things), then Bitcoin blockchain technology is very much a part of an overarching group - that being blockchain technology. The bitcoin network is open source - so there are plenty of similar networks. However, there are others still that are quite different. Furthermore, there have been innovative solutions programmed and written for the Bitcoin network that make up that technology - some of which I listed in my last post.

The point was very specific to bitcoin, and its failure to meet its design purpose as a currency. You seem to want to confuse that point by bringing in other cryptos, current and future. Different point completely.

As per my previous post, new technology finds its use case. Bitcoin is forming that use case as a store of value, an uncorrelated asset which can act as a hedge against the conventional system - which this week printed off more monopoly money than the complete market capitalisation of cryptocurrency.

Now, as regards 'bringing in other cryptocurrencies' - I have done no such thing. Where have I mentioned other cryptocurrencies? Please point it out.

Come back to me when they're hitting 100,000tps with sub second end-to-end confirmation. 100% improvement on next to nothing is still next to nothing.

As it stands today, 100,000 TPS isn't needed. In fact, you are deliberately trying to mislead others by quoting that figure. The visa network processes 1,700 transactions per second and rarely exceeds that level. That's a long way off your 100,000 TPS.
Notwithstanding that, lightning network is expected to achieve somewhere in the region of 1,000,000 TPS.

As regards the improvements I mentioned, they're all going to play their part. To say otherwise is absurd.

The internet doesn't have such limitations built into its core, bandwidth limitations are not designed in.

Sense of humour much? So you'd have us believe that at the origins of the internet - ARPANET - in the late '60's, it just came out of a box from the get go and could scale? There were limitations at its core - not that this matters. The bottom line is that the technology couldn't deliver for most use cases until many years later. As I type this, I'm stuck in an area with limited bandwidth - and to say that internet infrastructure is not relevant is ridiculous. It's kind of intrinsic to service delivery.

After the nonsense in the original article posted, I won't be wasting my time reading anything else he has to say.

Well then please don't waste anyone's time then. It's little wonder you didn't understand the underlying context of this most recent discussion then, isn't it.

So considered means actually taking action, not just having considered something? Regardless, residents of the US and other relatively stable and what appear to be well run economies are buying bitcoin, but your logic suggests they're all mismanaged.

You just admitted above that you didn't and won't read what Carter wrote. You have little business then commenting on it - and less still to take issue with something you can't possibly understand the context of (despite it being explained to you) - having not read Carters blog post. You're now telling me what my own thoughts are - hillarious stuff.

That's hilarious! So I can use bitcoin to buy anything on Amazon, but in effect, what I'm doing is sending bitcoin to a 3rd party who will then connect with another party (Coinbase) and then pay it to Amazon via the conventional banking system. Now that is the future right there.

I'm not hear to impress the likes of you, Leo (but I won't have you mislead anyone else that happens upon this thread). I will tell you what is hilarious though - the willful ignorance that your comments betray.


I said that I can buy anything from Amazon with Bitcoin. That statement is true - and remains true despite your challenges. Aside from that, you seem to have the most basic of comprehension difficulties (or at best? feigned comprehension difficulties). Here's the 40 seconds of video showing the seamless purchase of an item on Amazon using that browser extension. You're trying your hardest to contrive to make that seem complex when its not. This is a solution for people who possess Bitcoin - and want to spend it on goods and services. If they're within that eco-system, then how is it so complex or unreasonable to have this hooked up with a Coinbase account? According to your logic, it would be absurd if a debit card had to be linked up with a bank account.

Also, using that method I lose the valuable protections offered by credit or debit card providers

Yeah, and nothing in this life comes for free. 2.5% of the sale of any good or service has been tacked on to pay for credit card fees. Furthermore, 39% of consumers in the US reported card fraud last year. $24.5 Billion lost in card fraud in 2018. Merchants pay down 40% of that - which means that there's much more than 2.5% meshed in to product/service pricing to cover your precious cards and your 'protections'.

those protections will now just be limited to the transaction between myself and Moon.

They are a third party payment processor. You are still buying direct from Amazon. You have all the protections that platform itself provides.

And even that is limited by the lack of regulation around crypto.

Do you have ANY notion about what you're going on about here? What regulation? They act as a third party payments processor. Your purchase is still direct with Amazon.

Can you share some links? Maybe my Google search skills need some tuning, but I was unable to find any. Focussing on the Netherlands, I did find hashop.nl who carry a lot of the Aeotec range, but alas not the bypass device. But you can't have meant them anyway as they only deliver to the Benelux countries and Germany, and despite advertising that they accept bitcoin, do not offer any means of using them in the checkout process.

I have no notion of doing so. You're well capable of using google yourself. If it was someone else, I certainly would - but it's apparent to me that you've lost objectivity on this discussion a long time ago. The info above on Amazon opens up 353 million products to you - including the Aeotec Bypass that you're looking for. If you had Bitcoin to make the purchase, then there's a strong chance you'd already have a Coinbase account. ...in which case it would take you 40 seconds to make that purchase - job done. You're all out of excuses dude.

Well my point is if I had bitcoin, I'd want to spend them on things. Most of the businesses here that advertise having bitcoin ATMs don't actually accept bitcoin payment themselves. If I wanted to use my bitcoin to pay for something there, I had assumed the ATMs they were operating would allow convert and withdraw Euro, but alas they don't.

What do you want to buy in Bitcoin off a Bitcoin ATM operator?
Once again, Euro is freely available to everyone as its part of the conventional system. You are just looking for an excuse to bash by complaining that a Bitcoin ATM won't spit euro out at you. The idea of Bitcoin ATM's is to expand the reach of Bitcoin - and make it available to a wider public.
ALL of the examples I provided by the way ( in the U.S. , South America and Ireland) have involved roll outs in the past 12 months. In the case of the former two, they've had news of further expansion plans in the last few weeks. Coinlogiq have just installed a Bitcoin ATM within 10 minutes walk of my apartment.
The point is that you've deemed this whole thing dead - when it hasn't even gotten started.

Why do we even need bitcoin ATMs to buy bitcoin? Is it a bit archaic that such advanced technology isn't all online? Or is the ability to repeatedly lodge cash a handy way to hide the proceeds of black market or worse activity?

Bitcoin ATMs are important as oftentimes they will provide people's first experience of Bitcoin. They will play a role in onboarding people into the ecosystem. There are online options. There are peer to peer options. They are all facets of an ever expanding ecosystem. KYC/AML is the other reason why ATMs are being rolled out. It causes friction - people don't want to have the hassle of submitting paperwork. This is the reason that Bitcoin ATM rollout has increased 500% since 2016 with 5,457 Bitcoin ATMs worldwide.

As regards your black market jibe, there's far more illicit activity carried out every day of the week in CASH than there ever was or will be with Bitcoin. Other than that, you seem to want to wash away the freedom people are provided with via Bitcoin.
As regards money laundering, you just need to get a banking license to do that - and move money in the billions. KYC/AML exists for lesser mortals as a financial surveillance mechanism and nothing more.

The argument on AML/KYC is also nonsense. You find it 'absurd', it doesn't prevent 100% of illegal activity. Speed limits and road traffic legislation don't prevent hundreds of deaths and thousands of injuries on our roads. By your logic we should also scrap all that.

Your analogy is completely wayward. AML/KYC is a mechanism of recent times. The world functioned just fine without it - and it will again. Speed limits and road traffic legislation have little if anything by way of a downside trade off. I don't have to give up my privacy for same. That's not the case with AML/KYC.
Other than that, you are trying to distort the stats I presented a couple of posts ago by suggesting that they don't 'prevent' 100% of illegal activity. The point is that the guys that are positioned to apply these regulations (the banks) are the ones that actively move billions of illicit money around at will and not one banking official has been imprisoned for that. If authorities want to go out and fight crime, then let them do it. However, they should not be allowed to trample over peoples financial privacy in doing so.

And no confusion on what came first, I'm just sensing the dip in the bitcoin hype cycle. Technology adoption rates have accelerated massively over recent years, Bitcoin is lagging at this point.

I'm not sure what you're going on about. There has been a hype cycle with virtually every promising technology. Right now, we have AI and Robotics, IoT, Blockchain, AR and 5G as the headline technologies. There's been hype surrounding all of them. AI has been knocking around for years - but only now is coming through.
It took the telephone decades to reach 50% of the population. It took credit cards 40 years to gain adoption. The internet was borne out of ARPANET in the late 60's - when was the first time anyone here used it? All through the market doldrums of 2018, I could see the hard work being put in away from the hype of Dec 2017 (and I posted here to that effect). I've also seen people give up their jobs in conventional financial services and move entirely into the crypto space. Even in the last few posts, I've mentioned aspects of bitcoin blockchain technology that have been developed very recently. LN capacity is growing at an exponential rate. To achieve what has been achieved in the space of 10 years from the starting point of the collaboration of a handful of cypherpunks on internet message boards - its truly phenomenal. That you can't see that is an issue for yourself to resolve.

Up until now I believe we were discussing the value, if any, of the Bitcoin CURRENCY rather than the underlying blockchain technology.

Do you want to point out to me the aspects of what I've written above that are not about or relevant to the Bitcoin blockchain network and Bitcoin Blockchain Technology? Please review and come back to me.

As regards 'Bitcoin currency' - there was no such limitation. On the thread as a whole, we have been discussing Bitcoin - full stop. The thread is titled 'Why Bitcoin has Value" - and value can come from a number of use cases whether that be store of value, cross border transfer of value, the purchase of goods and services, a hedge against the conventional system, etc.
The most recent exchanges stem from post #110 - where I linked and quoted form Nic Carters blog post. I'm not under any illusion as to the topic at hand. Perhaps you are - in which case, please have a read through.

I think lumping them together at this point in the debate is misleading and I can't help but think you are doing it to help justify your belief in Bitcoin

Eh, I have no earthly idea as to what you could possibly be referring to. By all means quote a section of what I've written to illustrate your point. I have not mentioned any other cryptocurrency here.

You are not using Bitcoin to buy anything on Amazon, you are first converting it to FIAT

This segue stemmed from my claim that anything can be bought from Amazon using Bitcoin. That statement remains completely true - and it is a complete lie to suggest otherwise.
The transaction and contract exists between me as a buyer and Amazon. The fact that someone can use a simple browser extension as a third party payment processor is no major encumbrance. As per the video linked to above, its childsplay to purchase using Bitcoin on the Amazon platform.

First I need to convert them to real money.

YOU don't need to do anything. The whole thing is automated. Secondly., what you actually mean is that the automatic conversion is carried out from sound money to unsound money.

What's the point of this?

Well, it's quite simple what the point is. You earn sound money (Bitcoin) or received sound money (Bitcoin) from someone. You want to spend it and this simple yet innovative plugin opens up a marketplace of some 353 million products to you. It means this nonsense from Leo that 'you can't buy anything with Bitcoin' is exactly that - nonsense.

What's more this is cutting edge stuff. They're using Lightning Network - transactions are instant and they've only just started. By next year, they expect to support every major e-comm platform. Ergo (despite the fact that you both hate the thought of it) there is little if anything left that you can't buy with Bitcoin. That Firefly is the 'point' of it.

 

[Leo]

There are 605,000 results for 'bitcoin blockchain technology' -

Yet there are 1,840,000 results for 'bitcoin technology is an elephant in disguise', applying your logic that must be more true than claiming bitcoin is a technology.

I have no notion of doing so.

Only yesterday you said you found multiple shops selling that item that accepted bitcoin. Now it's too much trouble to take a look at your internet history to provide just one of those?

They are a third party payment processor. You are still buying direct from Amazon.

I'm buying from Amazon, but I'm not using bitcoin to do so. Amazon do not accept bitcoin, and given Bezos' silence on the matter, they are very unlikely to do so any time soon.

 

[tecate]

Yet there are 1,840,000 results for 'bitcoin technology is an elephant in disguise', applying your logic that must be more true than claiming bitcoin is a technology.

That's incorrect. My point is that you can go argue with those people and tell them they're wrong. I'm not sure who appointed you as the oracle on the matter but as per my previous post - we won't be agreeing.

Only yesterday you said you found multiple shops selling that item that accepted bitcoin. Now it's too much trouble to take a look at your internet history to provide just one of those?

First of all Leo, I'm not at your beck and call. Secondly, you've been presented with a perfectly good option to order off Amazon whilst paying in Bitcoin. I guess it seems it sticks in your craw that there is such an option. Other than that, those European online shops offered the device. It's a google search away if its so important to you. That's up to yourself.

I'm buying from Amazon, but I'm not using bitcoin to do so. Amazon do not accept bitcoin, and given Bezos' silence on the matter, they are very unlikely to do so any time soon.

Well of course you were never going to buy using Bitcoin anyway - as you're completely averse to the notion. The fact is that you claimed that you couldn't buy anything with Bitcoin. 353 million products through one marketplace alone is a whole lot of something. Amazon not officially accepting Bitcoin is neither here nor there. That browser plugin makes it possible seamlessly.

Furthermore, its a classic example of how the industry can create innovative solutions to address shortcomings given the space and time to do so.

 

[Leo]

That's incorrect. My point is that you can go argue with those people and tell them they're wrong.

You do know that just because google returns results for a search term it does not mean that all, or even many of those results agree with the statement. For example, 'the sky is bronze' returns 568 million results. I think we all know that the sky isn't bronze, and hasn't been since the times of ancient Greece.

I'm not sure who appointed you as the oracle on the matter but as per my previous post - we won't be agreeing.

I'm not claiming to be the oracle, just using the terminology in the industry standard way, sticking with that definition, and not trying to pretend I meant something else later on.

First of all Leo, I'm not at your beck and call. Secondly, you've been presented with a perfectly good option to order off Amazon whilst paying in Bitcoin. I guess it seems it sticks in your craw that there is such an option. Other than that, those European online shops offered the device. It's a google search away if its so important to you. That's up to yourself.

You said you were able to find multiple shops selling that device that will deliver to me, and accept bitcoin. I have googled and am unable to find a single shop anywhere in the world that sell that device for bitcoin. I have the challenge of proving a negative, you could simply provide one example to prove your point, Your failure to do so makes no sense unless your claim is false.

The fact is that you claimed that you couldn't buy anything with Bitcoin. 353 million products through one marketplace alone is a whole lot of something. Amazon not officially accepting Bitcoin is neither here nor there. That browser plugin makes it possible seamlessly.

The fact remains that Amazon do not accept bitcoin, and there isn't a single business I've interacted with over the last number of years who do currently accept bitcoin. Using a 3rd party that is 100% reliant on the VISA or MasterCard network and giving them access to my wallet is a long way from crypto utopia.

 

[Leo]

Interesting study here on the state of the Bitcoin world. Last revised in December after peer and industry review, but they're claiming 46% of all bitcoin transactions involve illegal activity.

 

[Firefly]

I said that I can buy anything from Amazon with Bitcoin. That statement is true - and remains true despite your challenges. Aside from that, you seem to have the most basic of comprehension difficulties (or at best? feigned comprehension difficulties). Here's the 40 seconds of video showing the seamless purchase of an item on Amazon using that browser extension. You're trying your hardest to contrive to make that seem complex when its not.

You can't buy anything from Amazon using Bitcoin. You have to firstly convert Bitcoin to real money. The Chrome plug-in you reference makes this easier, but if someone could develop a similar plug-in for converting my stamps to cash I could claim the same thing, that I can buy anything on Amazon using stamps. But of course I wouldn't. The fact is that the legal transaction with Amazon is not with Bitcoin, so in my opinion, to suggest you can buy anything on Amazon with Bitcoin is misleading.

Finally, I would be slow to enable 3rd party extensions on Chrome.... God knows what they could be running in the background....

 

[Firefly]

Interesting study here on the state of the Bitcoin world. Last revised in December after peer and industry review, but they're claiming 46% of all bitcoin transactions involve illegal activity.

And that's why I think Bitcoin will not fall to zero. It's great for the criminal world.