Time off for Christmas shopping in public service.

[Purple]

Abraham Lincoln was a civil servant, wasn't he?

LOL, but he still managed to fight a civil war where 7 out of 8 of him solders were combat troops. 7 out of 8 front line troops... not much chance of that in the public sector here

I, too, believe this.
Inflated Public Sector wages have increased prices in general to the extent that normal people can no longer afford basics.

This is basic economics… but you will still get those who subscribe to the economics of the breaded brethren who manage to ignore reality.

 

[Purple]

this Is Getting Annoying - Next They'll Be After The Day We Get Off For Our Birthdays.

Lol

 

[AlbacoreA]

Abraham Lincoln was a civil servant, wasn't he?

He also was a private sector worker.

I, too, believe this.
Inflated Public Sector wages have increased prices in general to the extent that normal people can no longer afford basics.

How are the public sector wages the sole cause of price increases?

What basics can normal people not afford?

Whats a normal person?

 

[AlbacoreA]

Why do you keep deflecting the points being made? Posters from the public sector were making the point that they were working up to and including Christmas Eve as if that was exceptional in the private sector. I pointed out that such posts are meaningless unless yearly holidays are given. If you only work a short week (35 hours) and you get more than 20 days holidays a year then you are still better off than most private sector employees even if you have to work Christmas Eve. ...

Its all meaningless as you make no distinction as to why people get the holidays they do, or what payment they get for overtime or working the hours they do. You make no distinction between someone on the minimium wage or the company director working the same extended hours or having the same holidays.

 

[AlbacoreA]

...To the poster (apologies, can't figure how to quote from 2 posts) who wants to know about hours worked per week, holiday entitlements, etc., I'm self-employed.I finished work at 1.30 on the morning of Christmas Eve, grabbed a few hours sleep and went back to work for about 3 hours until noon. Then I went shopping. Do I continue?? If so, I can go on a rant about how difficult it was to afford shopping which, in part, I can squarely blame the public sector for.

Whats the point here. The self employed rarely work the same hours as employees. No everyone gets a bonus either http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055443089

Obviously if you can't afford something, (public sector) you can't afford it, and need to cut your coat according to your cloth. But at the same time the private sector isn't an innocent in this either. The banks, the developers, the great irish rip-off of the consumer for goods and services, also the consumers failure to shop around, and just accept the rip off.

Theres a reason the same packet of biscuits is €2.50 in one shop and €4.50 in another only around the corner, and its not the public sector.

 

[baldyman27]

Whats the point here. The self employed rarely work the same hours as employees. No everyone gets a bonus either http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055443089

Obviously if you can't afford something, (public sector) you can't afford it, and need to cut your coat according to your cloth. But at the same time the private sector isn't an innocent in this either. The banks, the developers, the great irish rip-off of the consumer for goods and services, also the consumers failure to shop around, and just accept the rip off.

Theres a reason the same packet of biscuits is €2.50 in one shop and €4.50 in another only around the corner, and its not the public sector.

Specifically, I can refer to the fact that I wait at least 6 weeks to get VAT returnable, which, believe it or not, is the difference between me getting my salary or not. Can I afford to wear the coat?? Yes, I should be able to, if there wasn't a separate govt. dept. dealing with what I owe them and they owe me. Do you want more details???????

Not everyone gets bonuses, glad you said it. I was glad to get the 2 months salary I owed myself. And, yet again, we have a champion of the public sector who seems to think that private sector=banks/developers.
Now where have I heard that before?

 

[Purple]

Its all meaningless as you make no distinction as to why people get the holidays they do, or what payment they get for overtime or working the hours they do. You make no distinction between someone on the minimium wage or the company director working the same extended hours or having the same holidays.

No it's not. If you get 6 weeks holidays and work a 35 hour week and your neighbour gets 4 weeks and works a 39 hour week then even if you work Christmas Eve you still have a much better deal than him on holidays.

Pay, overtime etc are a different matter.

 

[AlbacoreA]

No it's not. If you get 6 weeks holidays and work a 35 hour week and your neighbour gets 4 weeks and works a 39 hour week then even if you work Christmas Eve you still have a much better deal than him on holidays.

Pay, overtime etc are a different matter.

Why pick on just christmas eve? You might work in a shop which christmas eve is one of the busiest shopping days of the year. You might work as a Santa or a taxi driver. Or you might work somewhere where christmas eve is completely dead work wise. Ditto One person might have more holidays but on 35k. The other might be on 135k. Holidays are not unrelated to pay and other conditions, and working hours and which days you work are not unrelated to what you do.

 

[AlbacoreA]

Specifically, I can refer to the fact that I wait at least 6 weeks to get VAT returnable, which, believe it or not, is the difference between me getting my salary or not. Can I afford to wear the coat?? Yes, I should be able to, if there wasn't a separate govt. dept. dealing with what I owe them and they owe me. Do you want more details???????

Not everyone gets bonuses, glad you said it. I was glad to get the 2 months salary I owed myself. And, yet again, we have a champion of the public sector who seems to think that private sector=banks/developers.
Now where have I heard that before?

Do developers and banks sell biscuits?

By saying the Public sector must cut its cloth, I'm championing the public sector. How so?

What has you paying your wages out of vat returns got to do with, working hours, a reduction in cost of public sector, consumers, and the great Irish rip off?

 

[room305]

No it's not. If you get 6 weeks holidays and work a 35 hour week and your neighbour gets 4 weeks and works a 39 hour week then even if you work Christmas Eve you still have a much better deal than him on holidays.

Pay, overtime etc are a different matter.

I wouldn't make too much of the public sector martyrdom surrounding working Christmas eve. It's a bit of joke really. People bring their kids in, we all eat mince pies and are told to go home by lunch time at the latest.

 

[poohbear]

Some assumptions (feel free to play with the numbers and check my sums)

We have 275,000 civil & public servants
They are each paid 20% more (on average) than the average industrial wage, say €700 p/w or €20 per hour
They each work 45 weeks of the year

Half of them take their Christmas half-day, one hours banking time per week, and two privelege days per annum.




Average wage of €700 per week is not what the "average Clerical Officer" is on. You would want to call that the "average fortnightly" for a Clerical Officer.

This particular statement always recks my head. When average wages are misquoted in the papers they include all Ministerial and High Ranking Public and Civil servants therefore pushing the "real average" wage up by 20% to 30%.


Banktime is only given on the day you are paid (its not one i entirely agree with) but for a lot thats fortnightly and not since Oct 2003 to any new staff.

Annual leave for most Clerical Officers is 20 days - which by the way is the minimum statutory entitlement - not a grand gesture A few years ago when the house prices were so hight, two CO's in the Civil Service with jobs for life could not get a mortgage cos their combined wages werent enough - job for life meant nothing then!

45 weeks dont know where you get that one, but if its taking in the weekend, everybody is entitled to two days off per week, whether that week begins on a Monday or Friday etc.


I'm in the CS for the past 17 years. I came in in 1991 when job security was not an option and I took a wage decrease. I'm in it for the long haul, I know that when times are good that I wont benefit financially but when they are bad I do still (thankfully ) have a job.

When I did the CS exam, over 10,000 went for it too. Everybody conveniently forgets that in the late 90,s early 2000's so many CS were leaving for the private sector that they had to get rid of the bottom four points of the pay scales for CO's in order to get new staff in This was a real slap in the face for anybody who was 5 years into the CS cos the new entrant sitting next to them was now getting the same pay!

I am grateful for my job, for which i've worked bloody hard for. I don't sit there doing nothing, I don't abuse my sick leave etc... I don't begrudge anybody in the private sector who has done really well over the past number of years I just wish people would research their opinions a little before blasting us all. They may find that things aren't as rosey as they seem.

 

[AlbacoreA]

I wouldn't make too much of the public sector martyrdom surrounding working Christmas eve. It's a bit of joke really. People bring their kids in, we all eat mince pies and are told to go home by lunch time at the latest.

For places that are quiet, they should make it an annual leave day.

 

[poohbear]

The problem there is that if the office is closed there will be an outcry in the papers. The particular area that I work in deals with Solrs, Accts etc which are all mostly closed for the week after Christmas. We generally just carry on with the background work instead. we are entitled to an extra day providing there is coverage in each section of each department.

As for eating mince pies all Xmas eve morning - that poster obviously doesn't work in a public office, that would look lovely in front of the public - very professional

Talking to my neighbour on Xmas Eve morning (who works in the private sector) laughed at me for having to go into work that day since his offices close for a week and a half at Xmas. This being the very person who moans and whinges about the CS and PS. I don't mind working - for me its the hassle of trying to organise childcare when creches close on the 23rd December and don't reopen till Monday 5th January - thats another thread in itself i fear!!.

Even between the PS and the CS there is a huge difference between leave and pay entitlements with the CS coming off worst !! but don't take me wrong on that statement - its just to show there are differentials every where

 

[room305]

The problem there is that if the office is closed there will be an outcry in the papers. The particular area that I work in deals with Solrs, Accts etc which are all mostly closed for the week after Christmas. We generally just carry on with the background work instead. we are entitled to an extra day providing there is coverage in each section of each department.

The better half is in the same situation. It's a public office and nobody wants to officially close the place and there's no work to be done but somebody has to go in.

As for eating mince pies all Xmas eve morning - that poster obviously doesn't work in a public office, that would look lovely in front of the public - very professional

Where I work is open to the public. They mightn't come in very often but it's technically open to everybody.

 

[z103]

Theres a reason the same packet of biscuits is €2.50 in one shop and €4.50 in another only around the corner, and its not the public sector.

I would disagree. According to poohbear, we have 275,000 civil & public servants. That means about 1 in 15 of Irish people are grossly overpaid.

We also now know that 'rip of Ireland' is because shops are taking advantage of all these overpaid people and are profiteering. The recent Forfas report indicates that cost of doing business in Ireland should only account for about 6% of the rip off.

What country pays clerical officers (for example) as much as Ireland does? People then wonder why prices are so high!

 

[poohbear]

I would disagree. According to poohbear, we have 275,000 civil & public servants. That means about 1 in 15 of Irish people are grossly overpaid.

We also now know that 'rip of Ireland' is because shops are taking advantage of all these overpaid people and are profiteering. The recent Forfas report indicates that cost of doing business in Ireland should only account for about 6% of the rip off.

What country pays clerical officers (for example) as much as Ireland does? People then wonder why prices are so high!

Eh Leghorn I didn't quote 275,000 civil and public servants, that was a previous poster

€22,000 is also the starting point of the Clerical Officer grade is that such huge money?? considering most of them will be working at the front line trying to help the public and getting an unspeakable amount of abuse. There aren't that many people in the private sector who would put up with the crap that a CO gets on the front line of a public department office.

As for Clerical Officers pay, a family member of mine who works in the private decided he'd like to go into the CS as his area of work was drying up, that was until he saw the advertised post with a starting pay of €22,000 he soon changed his mind!! He wanted to know who would work for only that!!

I also pointed out to him that being in the P or C service anymore is not a job for life. Staff since can be let go at the end of their probation which is a year (in my day it was two years) and that the Sec Gen in all Departments now has the authority to sack staff - thats CS don't know about CoCo's, HSE,etc.

There are however fundamental differences between the Civil Service and the Public Service, the Civil Service is basically the secretariat of the Government - no matter who is in government. One of the main differences is that state agencies get their funding from the exchequer via a government department but want to spend it like it was private money.
The Boards of state agencies, are mostly made up of political appointments no matter which party is in government at that time of appointment.

Many of us who liaise with these agencies will say the same thing, they want job security with private company perks. that doesn't work and this is where a lot of current problems are arising.

By the way some earlier poster said they paid their taxes so therefore our wages, I pay tax too so whats the point???

According to the OECD report the CS is one of the smallest in the world which is comparable with our state. However it would seem to be the public service which is particularly overstaffed that would mostly fall into the HSE (most probably). Thats not necessarily the fault of all staff, that problem arose when all Health Boards were amalgamated into the HSE, there should have been redundancies offered then, when there was the money to pay out and jobs for staff to go to in the private sector.

 

[finty]

Good post there poohbear!

about time this thread was locked, its like celebrity big brother I hate watching it but everytime i log on this site I can't help look in to see what nonsense is being bandied about about the CS.

Some people have good benefits, some don't. The civil service has good ones, certainly not as good as a lot of jobs out there but good none the less.

Its comparing apples and oranges and pears and bananas......it'll never end.

As poohbear said, the irish civil service is actually quite small and while it has its problems (and the holidays aren't one of them) its not the cause of the current crisis.

The HSE is an issue and a financial black hole, that needs sorting out big time.

I had a job where the staff got a free turkey and ham at christmas!
Didnt hear the shareholders screaming about the gross waste of company money and looking for the CEO's head!! Its a time of goodwill to all men!

Scrooges the lot of ye...

 

[Purple]

Why pick on just christmas eve? You might work in a shop which christmas eve is one of the busiest shopping days of the year. You might work as a Santa or a taxi driver. Or you might work somewhere where christmas eve is completely dead work wise. Ditto One person might have more holidays but on 35k. The other might be on 135k. Holidays are not unrelated to pay and other conditions, and working hours and which days you work are not unrelated to what you do.

I didn’t bring up working Christmas Eve, other posters made the point that they, as public sector employees, had to work Christmas Eve whereas private sector employees didn’t. I simply made the point that this is meaningless unless it is put in context of overall holiday leave and working hours.

Eh Leghorn I didn't quote 275,000 civil and public servants, that was a previous poster

€22,000 is also the starting point of the Clerical Officer grade is that such huge money?? considering most of them will be working at the front line trying to help the public and getting an unspeakable amount of abuse. There aren't that many people in the private sector who would put up with the crap that a CO gets on the front line of a public department office.

As for Clerical Officers pay, a family member of mine who works in the private decided he'd like to go into the CS as his area of work was drying up, that was until he saw the advertised post with a starting pay of €22,000 he soon changed his mind!! He wanted to know who would work for only that!!

I also pointed out to him that being in the P or C service anymore is not a job for life. Staff since can be let go at the end of their probation which is a year (in my day it was two years) and that the Sec Gen in all Departments now has the authority to sack staff - thats CS don't know about CoCo's, HSE,etc.

There are however fundamental differences between the Civil Service and the Public Service, the Civil Service is basically the secretariat of the Government - no matter who is in government. One of the main differences is that state agencies get their funding from the exchequer via a government department but want to spend it like it was private money.
The Boards of state agencies, are mostly made up of political appointments no matter which party is in government at that time of appointment.

Many of us who liaise with these agencies will say the same thing, they want job security with private company perks. that doesn't work and this is where a lot of current problems are arising.

By the way some earlier poster said they paid their taxes so therefore our wages, I pay tax too so whats the point???

According to the OECD report the CS is one of the smallest in the world which is comparable with our state. However it would seem to be the public service which is particularly overstaffed that would mostly fall into the HSE (most probably). Thats not necessarily the fault of all staff, that problem arose when all Health Boards were amalgamated into the HSE, there should have been redundancies offered then, when there was the money to pay out and jobs for staff to go to in the private sector.

Good post Poohbear.
Can you clarify if the Sec Gen of each department can make staff redundant? For example after the creation of the HSE the staff numbers in the Dept of Health should, I would suggest, have dropped considerable. Can the Sec General get 200 staff in a room and say, “sorry lads, we don’t have a job for you anymore; you’re all being let go.”?

When making a comparison of staff on €22’000 a year you have to take into account the likely pension benefits (they won’t retire on €22’000), the short working week (35 hours or over 10% less then the standard working week), and the generally better terms and conditions.

A friend of mine is a grade 6 public sector employee. He works 35 hours a week, gets 6 weeks holidays plus 2 privilege days plus he can work up one day a month of overtime on his laughable short week (his words). That gives him a grand total of 44 days off a year (plus paid sick leave). His opinion is that most of the people he works with know they have it handy and would be willing to take a pay cut followed by a 12-18 month pay freeze. I don’t know what he gets paid but he said he is one hell of an hourly rate.

 

[poohbear]

Good post Poohbear.
Can you clarify if the Sec Gen of each department can make staff redundant? For example after the creation of the HSE the staff numbers in the Dept of Health should, I would suggest, have dropped considerable. Can the Sec General get 200 staff in a room and say, “sorry lads, we don’t have a job for you anymore; you’re all being let go.”?

When making a comparison of staff on €22’000 a year you have to take into account the likely pension benefits (they won’t retire on €22’000), the short working week (35 hours or over 10% less then the standard working week), and the generally better terms and conditions.

A friend of mine is a grade 6 public sector employee. He works 35 hours a week, gets 6 weeks holidays plus 2 privilege days plus he can work up one day a month of overtime on his laughable short week (his words). That gives him a grand total of 44 days off a year (plus paid sick leave). His opinion is that most of the people he works with know they have it handy and would be willing to take a pay cut followed by a 12-18 month pay freeze. I don’t know what he gets paid but he said he is one hell of an hourly rate.[/quote]


It is of course easier to let staff go if they are under probation or are paying full PRSI. As there has never been a mass cull before I don't know how they will approach it . They made a complete mess with Decentralisation (which in its natural form is a very good idea) but a mass push out of the Pale was never going to work. As I'm a longterm CS i don't pay full PRSI, dont get dentist or optical benefits etc however this also means if I'm sacked I can't claim any benefit etc. So if staff are going to be let go or given the option of redundancies then they should be able to access the social welfare system like everybody else.

As far as the €22,000 that will rise to €35,000 approx over 15 years or so. They will get half their weekly wage as a pension provided they have worked the forty years any less worked will be deducted from the pension. This basically means if you don't go for promotion and work for forty years as a CO and paid your contributions, your pension will be €17500 per year This is something i try to highlight to those in the private sector. The average CS is not getting a pension of €100,000 or any where near it.

A grade 6 must be HSE or CoCo as the CS do not have this grade structure so I can't fully explain their plan. CoCo have a heck of a lot more Annual Leave that the CS, many colleagues left the CS and went into the CoCo when they did a huge recruitment drive some years back. They also get paid more and work less hours than the CS. I think its something similar in the HSE. If a Grade 6 is on a par with a HEO in the CS then the Grade 6 is getting 18 days more Annual Leave!!!! that a HEO in the CS - no wonder hes laughing. Overtime is not a given in the CS - its rare to get in most departments.

Regarding the new pay talks, I don't think anybody is against the idea of loosing that 6% over two years as that was given to keep the private and public sector pay in line with inflation. If inflation does decrease to 0% then none of us can hardly expect a pay rise. Keeping jobs will be hard enough for most people.

 

[Orga]

An absolutely ridiculous argument. For a start, you can subtract one employee's PC start-up time as the person who originally informed me about the Christmas shopping time also has 2 desks in 2 different parts of the city, one of which he has never even seen, much less waited 3 minutes for the attached PC to warm up. If you want to go down that road why not start calculating the cost of relieving one's self at the taxpayer's expense??? A PC is necessary, half days for shopping are not.

Let's not forget that the public service is paid for by the taxpayer and, as such, we have a right to highlight these perks and also have a right to be unhappy about them. To the poster (apologies, can't figure how to quote from 2 posts) who wants to know about hours worked per week, holiday entitlements, etc., I'm self-employed.I finished work at 1.30 on the morning of Christmas Eve, grabbed a few hours sleep and went back to work for about 3 hours until noon. Then I went shopping. Do I continue?? If so, I can go on a rant about how difficult it was to afford shopping which, in part, I can squarely blame the public sector for.

Baldy, I'm afraid you missed the point - I'm neither pro nor con on this issue as it's far too complex to be so simplistic - I acknowledge that it is cathartic when people are feeling the pinch to be able to let off steam and have a go at an easy target and I'm glad that the public service and civil service are filling another important need among the ordinary citizens of Ireland - the point is that mathepac took figures, did a "shake 'em all around", came up with a large number and used it to justify an argument. That's both bad maths and bad arguing. I used the same specious figures to support what (you rightly picked up on) as an unsustainable argument. And, yes, I had actually considered developing the example of toilet breaks but I understand that this would be gender biased and could of course lead to large numbers of the predominantly female employee members of the P&S services being made redundant due to the negative impact that their slightly longer toilet breaks are having on efficiency and productivity - in the national interests of course and in the interest of the private citizen who works in private industry and pays taxes.

Just remember that based on Mathepac's figures every minute extra spent in the toilet costs the system €10million