The R Word

I wonder how many of the admin staff could be replaced by software? A lot I would think...
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we couldn't even get a voting system using software, I think the admin staff are safe.
 
television said:
I Would accept a pay freeze if I thought there would be no cut in vital services in health and education.
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a pay freeze? When the industry I worked in hit hard times, we took a 10% cut, 2 years freeze at that cut level and 30% of my colleagues were made redundant.

Do you not understand the principle that if you are not taking in money (tax revenues are falling) you have to cut costs? How do you propose to pay for your current costs? Borrow (deferred taxes) or just tax the private sector more heavily.
 
diarmuidc said:
a pay freeze? When the industry I worked in hit hard times, we took a 10% cut, 2 years freeze at that cut level and 30% of my colleagues were made redundant.

Do you not understand the principle that if you are not taking in money (tax revenues are falling) you have to cut costs? How do you propose to pay for your current costs? Borrow (deferred taxes) or just tax the private sector more heavily.
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Bummer for you that. if I were you I would have exercised my economic right and got another job. Inflation means any pay freeze is a pay cut in real terms. When times are good there is bonuses in the private sector that are not avalible to equilivent people in the public sector. Thats the risk choice people make in the private sector.

PAYE workers in the public and private sector pay the same amount of tax. I am not worried if business is taxed a little more. Businesses of all kinds have been ripping of the consumer during the boom its time they gave a little back.
 
television said:
When times are good there is bonuses in the private sector that are not avalible to equilivent people in the public sector.
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An oversimplistic generalisation I'm afraid - there are many hundreds of thousands in private sector who don't receive bonuses.
 
television said:
When times are good there is bonuses in the private sector that are not avalible to equilivent people in the public sector. Thats the risk choice people make in the private sector.
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That used to be the case but then we got Benchmarking; a one way valve that pumps money into the pockets of the public sector. It can truly be said that you now have it every way; all of the rewards with none of the risks.

You say that you think those in the public and private sector on average wages should get a pay increase. I agree with you in the sense that they deserve it but the fact is that as a country we cannot afford it.
If these pay increases go ahead how do you propose they are paid for?
Do you count teachers getting over €100 an hour for classroom time as being on an average wage? (22 hours a week X 33 weeks a year = 726 weeks a year or 14 weeks work for the average owner of a small business in Ireland who works 52 hours a week)
Do you think that nurses should get a pay increase on top of the 8.5% per hour increase they will get when their short working week in reduced even more?
Do you think that any organisation can increase its staff levels by 60'000 in less than ten years without generating any waste? (Just as the health sector has done)
Before the HSE was created the health service was run by the Dept. of Health. What do all those people in the Dept. of Health who used to run the service do now?

All over the private sector people who deserve a pay increase are not just taking pay cuts, they are loosing their jobs. How does that get Benchmarked?
 
rmelly said:
An oversimplistic generalisation I'm afraid - there are many hundreds of thousands in private sector who don't receive bonuses.
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An oversimplistic generalisation; now you would not be one for that when it comes to your analysis of the public sector would you?
 
television said:
I am not worried if business is taxed a little more. Businesses of all kinds have been ripping of the consumer during the boom its time they gave a little back.
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Incredible. There you go, people like me in the the private sector, regardless of loss of jobs and revenue, should work harder so that people like you can continue to live in your protected, privileged world with no risk of job loss or reduction in salary.

You're in for a rude awakening.
 
Purple said:
That used to be the case but then we got Benchmarking; a one way valve that pumps money into the pockets of the public sector. It can truly be said that you now have it every way; all of the rewards with none of the risks.
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Last round of benchmarking what was in it for the public sector. Pensions were taken into account so stop whinging about that one.

Purple said:
You say that you think those in the public and private sector on average wages should get a pay increase. I agree with you in the sense that they deserve it but the fact is that as a country we cannot afford it..
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Efficencies can be brought about without cutting pay or at least that should not be the first cut, which it frequently is.

Purple said:
Do you count teachers getting over €100 an hour for classroom time as being on an average wage? (22 hours a week X 33 weeks a year = 726 weeks a year or 14 weeks work for the average owner of a small business in Ireland who works 52 hours a week)?
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No.

Purple said:
Do you think that nurses should get a pay increase on top of the 8.5% per hour increase they will get when their short working week in reduced even more?
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They want to be counted like physios and Occupational therapists which have those terms and conditions. They do a dam tough job I do not begrude them looking for it.




Purple said:
Do you think that any organisation can increase its staff levels by 60'000 in less than ten years without generating any waste? (Just as the health sector has done)
Before the HSE was created the health service was run by the Dept. of Health. What do all those people in the Dept. of Health who used to run the service do now? ?
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This increase must be seen in the context of neglect and cutbackds of the health services in the 80s, the rising population in ireland, etc.

Purple said:
All over the private sector people who deserve a pay increase are not just taking pay cuts, they are loosing their jobs. How does that get Benchmarked?
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Why do you see the laying off of people in the private sector as the responcibility/fault of the public sector. If we have the most streamlined and efficent public sector in the world, global economic problems will lead to job losses in ireland.
 
So when things are on the way up, you want a ride along the backs of the private sector via benchmarking. However as soon as things turn down, you are unwilling to make the same sacrifices as the private sector.

Some partnership.
 
diarmuidc said:
Incredible. There you go, people like me in the the private sector, regardless of loss of jobs and revenue, should work harder so that people like you can continue to live in your protected, privileged world with no risk of job loss or reduction in salary.

You're in for a rude awakening.
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I am saying that businesses who have creamed off the top and ripped off consumers over the last decade have a cheek to be demanding anything. Where do you think this benchmarking money has got to. Paying the overinflated costs which an innefficent and greedy business sector has passed on to comsumers (while at the same time using every trick in tho book to avoid tax at the expence of hard working PAYE workers in the public/private sector)

irish business must become more street wise more efficent and innovative, this has nothing to do with the public sector. The only one in for the rude awakening is SMBs who have allowed complacency to fester in the good times. WHo is going to suffer becuase of this? Your average joe in the private sector, while the bosses sun themselves in sunny spanish retreats.
 
television said:
Last round of benchmarking what was in it for the public sector. Pensions were taken into account so stop whinging about that one.
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Only 12% was allowed. The real figure should be much higher. The shorter hours, job security and generally better terms and conditions were not taken into account.

television said:
Efficencies can be brought about without cutting pay or at least that should not be the first cut, which it frequently is.
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I agree but job cuts are required.

television said:
They want to be counted like physios and Occupational therapists which have those terms and conditions. They do a dam tough job I do not begrude them looking for it.
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Some of them do and some of them don’t. 32 hours a week is a part time job.

television said:
This increase must be seen in the context of neglect and cutbackds of the health services in the 80s, the rising population in ireland, etc.
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I agree but that’s not what I asked.

television said:
Why do you see the laying off of people in the private sector as the responcibility/fault of the public sector.
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The increase in costs and the subsequent loss of competitiveness due to inefficient and/or overpriced public services has a direct effect of employment in the whole economy.
television said:
If we have the most streamlined and efficent public sector in the world, global economic problems will lead to job losses in ireland.
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I agree.
This debate is focusing far too much on the public sector. While reform, staff cuts and pay freezes are absolutely necessary (but not likely) there are other factors that have a much bigger impact on the economy as Treehouse pointed out earlier.
 
television said:
I am saying that businesses who have creamed off the top and ripped off consumers over the last decade have a cheek to be demanding anything. Where do you think this benchmarking money has got to. Paying the overinflated costs which an innefficent and greedy business sector has passed on to comsumers (while at the same time using every trick in tho book to avoid tax at the expence of hard working PAYE workers in the public/private sector)
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Joe Higgins, is that you?
 
television said:
I am saying that businesses who have creamed off the top and ripped off consumers over the last decade have a cheek to be demanding anything. Where do you think this benchmarking money has got to. Paying the overinflated costs which an innefficent and greedy business sector has passed on to comsumers (while at the same time using every trick in tho book to avoid tax at the expence of hard working PAYE workers in the public/private sector)
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How do businesses in an open economy cream off (make supernormal profits)? I compete with companies in Ireland, the UK, the EU and the Far East for business. We are completely open to competition from all over the world. The same is the case for a huge proportion of SME’s in this country.


television said:
irish business must become more street wise more efficent and innovative, this has nothing to do with the public sector. The only one in for the rude awakening is SMBs who have allowed complacency to fester in the good times. WHo is going to suffer becuase of this? Your average joe in the private sector, while the bosses sun themselves in sunny spanish retreats.
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With respect you have no idea what you are talking about. The era of the “Bosses” being absentee owners living the highlife while their employees toiled “down mill” has been over, with very few exceptions, for decades. I would suggest that there are far more employers paying their staff more than they are paying themselves. I know that this does not fit into your view of the world but it’s reality.
 
Purple said:
How do businesses in an open economy cream off (make supernormal profits)?
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By charging consumers of their products over inflated prices.


Purple said:
With respect you have no idea what you are talking about. The era of the “Bosses” being absentee owners living the highlife while their employees toiled “down mill” has been over, with very few exceptions, for decades. I would suggest that there are far more employers paying their staff more than they are paying themselves. I know that this does not fit into your view of the world but it’s reality.
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With respect, even if those people who are paying thier staff more them themselves is a fact, this is usually short term and in the long run if the business is sucessful then they get the rewards.

And tell the rest of the speel to the workers in Hibernian who lost their jobs. Replace miner with call centre worker. Your nieve idealism of the worker and owner striving towards one mutually benifical economic nirvana is pretty cosy until thier is a downturn and then no amount of worker efficency will save them from the chop.
 
i think its obvious that television has lost this arguement. there wont be a pay freeze cos the unions will strike and that will be it. the public sector has this country by the short and curlys. the unions have no understanding of economics and inflation. its a well known fact that if inflation fans a new round of pay increases to combat that inflation then that will stroke a new and more violent round of inflation. thats basic economics, the private sector knows this and cuts its cloth accordingly and stops pay rises during bad times. its so simple to understand. if the govt gives the public sector rises to help people with inflation then this country is going broke very very fast
 
television said:
I got togive it to you; that was funny. Very Funny.


Purple, there has been efficencies and reform in the public sector. More is needed perhaps but reform has been ongoing.
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more is definitly needed....the whole public service should be streamlined, espically the upper sectors...problem is the government dosent have the will or the desire to do it.
 
jimbob1234 said:
i think its obvious that television has lost this arguement. there wont be a pay freeze cos the unions will strike and that will be it. the public sector has this country by the short and curlys. the unions have no understanding of economics and inflation. its a well known fact that if inflation fans a new round of pay increases to combat that inflation then that will stroke a new and more violent round of inflation. thats basic economics, the private sector knows this and cuts its cloth accordingly and stops pay rises during bad times. its so simple to understand. if the govt gives the public sector rises to help people with inflation then this country is going broke very very fast
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I think I am doing pretty well actually. And pay rises to be given to the lowes paid pubic sector. Not all.

Again Jimbon if the public sector was streamlined down to an inch of our lives this country would still be caught by the short and curlies economiclly. Its external economic factors im afraid.

Gradual rise in interest rates
Credit crunch
India and China
etc etc etc
 
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