"Public Sector Debate": Any chance of a truce?

[VOR]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

This stuff requires experience and knowledge.

And that attitude says it all really. You try and be constructive and get met with a dismissive attitude.

Many people on this site have years of experience in many large companies. We have brought about change in systems, structure and culture. But folks "this stuff is hard".

But of course what Complainer misses completely is that the first thing Microsoft did when designing W8 was to ASK the user what we wanted.
Ditto Ford, BOI and Elan. What's more the companies he mentioned will travel the world for best practice. Microsoft will even use champion-challenger.

Unfortunately, Ford do that and then get met by a union who just say no.

 

[shnaek]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

It is a good strategy in a debate to bring your opponent on a journey round and round in cirlces until they give up in frustration. It is a strategy best employed to maintain the status quo. It is also helpful if you can put your opponent constantly on the defensive.

 

[Caveat]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

I'm sure they do, but I've no idea why you expect them to post them here.

Well Shawady seems willing for one. I'm sure there are others.

They should be working on them within their own organisations/networks/unions etc.

Well maybe they are? They may not always be in a position or role to affect change or even be listened to though. Plenty of success stories from within the private sector of ideas from a variety of levels or roles on cost savings or even product development e.g. the idea for Sega's gaming character Sonic the Hedgehog apparently came from a cleaning lady from within the organisation.

If you don't want to do it Complainer, fine, but please don't discourage those that do.

 

[Complainer]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

Many people on this site have years of experience in many large companies. We have brought about change in systems, structure and culture. But folks "this stuff is hard".

How many of those changes were inspired by proposals from well-meaning bystanders?

But of course what Complainer misses completely is that the first thing Microsoft did when designing W8 was to ASK the user what we wanted.
Ditto Ford, BOI and Elan. What's more the companies he mentioned will travel the world for best practice. Microsoft will even use champion-challenger.

You might want to go back and re-read my post, particularly this bit "In developing public policy and public services, there is a role for consultation with the public, and this is normally a standard part of the process already."

Well maybe they are? They may not always be in a position or role to affect change or even be listened to though. Plenty of success stories from within the private sector of ideas from a variety of levels or roles on cost savings or even product development e.g. the idea for Sega's gaming character Sonic the Hedgehog apparently came from a cleaning lady from within the organisation.

If you don't want to do it Complainer, fine, but please don't discourage those that do.

Hey, knock yourself out. Fire away. But let's not kid ourselves about the value of these AAM discussions.

 

[Caveat]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

Hey, knock yourself out. Fire away.

What's with the attitude? Anyway, I won't be posting other than to ask questions because as I'm sure you have gathered, I don't work in the public/civil service.

But let's not kid ourselves about the value of these AAM discussions.

Yes. So you keep saying. Gotcha.

 

[Latrade]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

Hey, knock yourself out. Fire away. But let's not kid ourselves about the value of these AAM discussions.

Hang on. The aim isn't to change the world or elevate the importance of AAM. It's an important subject that has implications for everyone in the state, not just tax payers and not just public sector employees. Where's the harm in a bunch of people having a rational discussion on this?

Maybe the "la la la, I'm not listening" approach does more harm than good. Maybe it's about educating those who are forming irrational opinions about the PS/CS. Maybe because if there isn't some aspect of savings we'll be pretty much screwed come early in the new year. Maybe because if the government doesn't try something beyond sweeping cuts, it'll end up setting back our standard of living to a third world level. Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner....

the issue isn't going to go away.

 

[Complainer]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

What's with the attitude?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_mentality

 

[galleyslave]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

complainer, if I've sat this thread out for a while now because you have managed to disrupt it, like you did the other, for no seemingly good reason but please, enough. If you dont like the thread content, dont contribute, but don't try and derail/sidetrack it either. Why keep posting if you see no value in it ?

 

[Sunny]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

Hey, knock yourself out. Fire away. But let's not kid ourselves about the value of these AAM discussions.

I love the way you go on about everyone elses ill-informed comments but you are the same person who has suggested more than once that the savings the Government are looking for can be made by not pumping any more money into Anglo Irish Bank.

The whole idea of public services is just that. They are public services. If people want to suggest ways to improve them on this forum or through any other means, they are free to do so. Some of the suggestions might not make sense, some of them might be ludicrious and biased and based on incorrect facts but some of them might just be worth taking on board. So maybe instead of bashing every suggestion when you don't know for sure they won't work any more than the person who made it knows for sure it will work, you could start adding something constructive or else just ignore the whole thread since as you point out AAM doesn't run the public sector so why does it bother you what these deranged ill-informed people write.

We all know (most of us anyway) that throwing ideas out there like centralising IT, demolishing every single quango, cutting jobs etc are simplistic solutions and don't stand up to scrutiny so stop getting your knickers in a twist pointing out the flaws.

Anyway like Caveat, I am not commenting anymore.

 

[Howitzer]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

+1. Just watching.

 

[shnaek]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

I'd like to suggest a ZONE system on busses in Dublin city, so you can hop from bus to bus on the one ticket within a certain timeframe to get to your destination. This system operates in most European cities. In every other city your fee should allow you hop on busses going in the one direction in a certain timeframe. All cities outside Dublin are too small for a ZONE system, so they should simply be considered a single ZONE.

Or would I be better off starting a new thread for this suggestion?

 

[galleyslave]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

Id start a new one. this one has been trashed

 

[Complainer]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

Well boohoohoo - You get to experience just a tiny portion of the bile and vitriol that has been heaped on the public sector on this site for years now, and particularly escalating over the past 12 months, and you throw a huff, take your ball and run home.

Perhaps how you might start understanding how public servants feel after enduring these ongoing attacks.

Can I suggest that each poster who submits a suggestion about improving the public services includes details of their own role/function/organisation, so that the public servants who know nothing about those businesses can submit their suggestions for improvements too?

 

[galleyslave]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

in other words you are deliberately sabotaging the debate. Thought so, exactly why I stopped 'debating' with you on the other thread.

 

[Complainer]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

in other words you are deliberately sabotaging the debate. Thought so, exactly why I stopped 'debating' with you on the other thread.

Look up, galleyslave - There's the important point, flying right over your head.

 

[Caveat]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

+1.
The PS wage bill will have to reduced and is worth discussing but it just ends up getting bogged down non-PS workers making cheap shots or PS workers getting over-defensive.
I was going to start a thread for public servant to make suggestions as to savings could be made in the public sector but I could see it would end up going down the same road as previous threads.

I think Shawady post about public sector workers making suggestions for cost savings is an excellent one, providing they are not couched in vague management speak around "efficiencies" and "synergies". These are the people at the coal face, why not get them to make some reasoned suggestions, preferable with numbers attached and ask private sector worker posters not to comment on them for a week?

I would be delighted to see such posts. And would be happy not to comment at all. I would be very interested in seeing the outcome.

I think the point, at least initially, is more for public sector/civil service posters to make the suggestions

I think this thread should be abandoned for now and a proper new one started in the vein of what Shawady VOR & Mpsox were saying.

Anyway, I won't be posting other than to ask questions because as I'm sure you have gathered, I don't work in the public/civil service.

Are you sure you have even grasped the concept of this thread complainer?

Can I suggest that each poster who submits a suggestion about improving the public services includes details of their own role/function/organisation, so that the public servants who know nothing about those businesses can submit their suggestions for improvements too?

Because it doesn't look like it.

 

[galleyslave]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

nope, it's not. You're confusing legitimately held beliefs expressed by those with contrary opinions with deliberate sabotage.
You deliberately sabotaged the thread. Others, as far as I can see simply disagreed.

 

[Latrade]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

The thread's dead baby. The thread's dead.

 

[S.L.F]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

I read the entire thread on politics.ie and have to say I agree with 95% of what was written.

I'm not a PS worker, I have seen the hurt and frustration on the people I do know in the PS from all the lies coming from the media.

I also would like to see a truce, we should be attacking the govt for the shambles they have left our country in.

We are all in this together we either sink or swim.

 

[boris]

Re: Any chance of a truce?

I read the entire thread on politics.ie and have to say I agree with 95% of what was written.

I'm not a PS worker, I have seen the hurt and frustration on the people I do know in the PS from all the lies coming from the media.

I also would like to see a truce, we should be attacking the govt for the shambles they have left our country in.

We are all in this together we either sink or swim.

Well SLF I totally agree. I work in the CS and have been subject to wholesome abuse from everyone since last year. This carryon has been depressing for both me and my colleagues despite the fact that we work our butts off and love the work we do.

I was talking to a colleague of mine who stated that things were not far from brother turning against brother. He was right. I have now started to see this seeping through to family members. I was told the other night by mother with regards to pay cutbacks that the "public service doesn't matter" and that nobody cares about them. This attitude has been drummed into her by the media.

I do think that the public strike last week would not have happened only for the media abuse that is being hurled at them and that the ps/cs have just enough at this stage. The media are only interested in a story and the consequences do not matter to them.

Either we all pull together or we sink.