"Public Sector Debate": Any chance of a truce?
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galleyslave
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Re: Any chance of a truce?
the key thing though is being able to let permanent staff go if there's no job for them... it seems to me that can't be done right now. Anyhow, aside from that, and I don't know if its due to the nature of the work, but the amount of literal paperwork being done is astronomical. greater computerisation would surely be a good thing
the key thing though is being able to let permanent staff go if there's no job for them... it seems to me that can't be done right now. Anyhow, aside from that, and I don't know if its due to the nature of the work, but the amount of literal paperwork being done is astronomical. greater computerisation would surely be a good thing
Re: Any chance of a truce?
What do you mean by this Liaconn - are you talking about adaptability/flexibility etc?
What do you mean by this Liaconn - are you talking about adaptability/flexibility etc?
Re: Any chance of a truce?
Partly that, Caveat. But also there tends to be an attitude (in the Civil Service anyway) of 'we've always had six staff in this section so we have to retain that number' even if projects have been delivered, priorities have changed etc. Managers are dreadful for 'holding on' to staff who are needed elsewhere. In the meantime, other areas which have suddenly got busier, have to fight to get extra staff. To me this is a major, major failing in human resource policy in the Public Service and affects staff morale and motivation as well as delivery of objectives.
Partly that, Caveat. But also there tends to be an attitude (in the Civil Service anyway) of 'we've always had six staff in this section so we have to retain that number' even if projects have been delivered, priorities have changed etc. Managers are dreadful for 'holding on' to staff who are needed elsewhere. In the meantime, other areas which have suddenly got busier, have to fight to get extra staff. To me this is a major, major failing in human resource policy in the Public Service and affects staff morale and motivation as well as delivery of objectives.
galleyslave
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Re: Any chance of a truce?
liaconn - the same thing happens with resources and budgets. The attitude that we may need it, and besides, if we take a cut now, we'll never get it back. I think empire building comes into it also. But how to change that culture?
liaconn - the same thing happens with resources and budgets. The attitude that we may need it, and besides, if we take a cut now, we'll never get it back. I think empire building comes into it also. But how to change that culture?
Re: Any chance of a truce?
See this could turn into a much more constructive thread than what usually happens. Maybe if the public sector workers make suggestions, they can be submitted to the Government for inclusion in talks with the Unions. Not all will work or be acceptable but at least the ideas are coming from the people at the coal face.
See this could turn into a much more constructive thread than what usually happens. Maybe if the public sector workers make suggestions, they can be submitted to the Government for inclusion in talks with the Unions. Not all will work or be acceptable but at least the ideas are coming from the people at the coal face.
Re: Any chance of a truce?
That's the problem. If everyone gave up what they didn't need there would be no problem with people getting staff or budgetary allocations back when they do need them because there'd be enough to go around. It would take a sea change in attitude plus a much firmer approach by Management Boards to get this started though. Also, Department of Finance would have to get properly on board and be more flexible in their approach.
Sorry, that's an answer to Caveat.
That's the problem. If everyone gave up what they didn't need there would be no problem with people getting staff or budgetary allocations back when they do need them because there'd be enough to go around. It would take a sea change in attitude plus a much firmer approach by Management Boards to get this started though. Also, Department of Finance would have to get properly on board and be more flexible in their approach.
Sorry, that's an answer to Caveat.
Re: Any chance of a truce?
God it's all so civil and reasonable all of a sudden
I think that's a good point from galleyslave re budgets - I have a lot of experience of last minute unnecessary budget exhausting, for fear of budget reductions.
How is this measured anyway? Is it that one random budget, one year, is maybe taken as an 'average' even though it may have been required during extraordinary circumstances/expenditure?
God it's all so civil and reasonable all of a sudden
I think that's a good point from galleyslave re budgets - I have a lot of experience of last minute unnecessary budget exhausting, for fear of budget reductions.
How is this measured anyway? Is it that one random budget, one year, is maybe taken as an 'average' even though it may have been required during extraordinary circumstances/expenditure?
Re: Any chance of a truce?
Think the word you are looking for is boring!
God it's all so civil and reasonable all of a sudden
Think the word you are looking for is boring!
Complainer
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Re: Any chance of a truce?
The bad news is that several posters on this thread (probably without even realising it) have continued to bash the public sector on this thread. This is why (as I've explained in this post - down the end) I won't be posting my proposed solutions on AAM.
The bad news is that several posters on this thread (probably without even realising it) have continued to bash the public sector on this thread. This is why (as I've explained in this post - down the end) I won't be posting my proposed solutions on AAM.
Lex Foutish
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Re: Any chance of a truce?
Agree with the bold type above, Complainer.
The whole Public Service bashing thing on AAM has become a big turn off for me. As I've said here many times, many such posters argue their points very well but, overall, it has become endless, boring, repetitious, tiring and tedious, punctuated by a degree of ignorance and misinformation.
I'm not going to post about it anymore, either. It's pointless. We're all going around in circles.
Agree with the bold type above, Complainer.
The whole Public Service bashing thing on AAM has become a big turn off for me. As I've said here many times, many such posters argue their points very well but, overall, it has become endless, boring, repetitious, tiring and tedious, punctuated by a degree of ignorance and misinformation.
I'm not going to post about it anymore, either. It's pointless. We're all going around in circles.
galleyslave
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Re: Any chance of a truce?
so according to the above posters, who incidently, despite saying they werent going to post had to post to say that, we can't debate the issue, because doing so constitutes 'bashing' the public sector. Changing the culture, looking for possibilities to improve things..
Well, folks, stay out of it then. Back to the issue at hand.
so according to the above posters, who incidently, despite saying they werent going to post had to post to say that, we can't debate the issue, because doing so constitutes 'bashing' the public sector. Changing the culture, looking for possibilities to improve things..
Well, folks, stay out of it then. Back to the issue at hand.
Re: Any chance of a truce?
Just a suggestion - why not provide specifics e.g. for the above if you know a section that is very quiet and one that's really busy provide these department names / job functions etc.
Similarly another poster mentioned the sharing of IT...again provide specifics - maybe the HSE has more than one payroll package, reporting tool, data warehouse etc.
Just a suggestion - why not provide specifics e.g. for the above if you know a section that is very quiet and one that's really busy provide these department names / job functions etc.
Similarly another poster mentioned the sharing of IT...again provide specifics - maybe the HSE has more than one payroll package, reporting tool, data warehouse etc.
Re: Any chance of a truce?
Bash/criticise/discuss/mention?
Pity you won't contribute as you seem to have in depth knowledge of a number of areas within the civil/public service and have recognised the need for change and improvement yourself.
I think this thread should be abandoned for now and a proper new one started in the vein of what Shawady VOR & Mpsox were saying.
Bash/criticise/discuss/mention?
Pity you won't contribute as you seem to have in depth knowledge of a number of areas within the civil/public service and have recognised the need for change and improvement yourself.
I think this thread should be abandoned for now and a proper new one started in the vein of what Shawady VOR & Mpsox were saying.
Re: Any chance of a truce?
+ 1, but with rules:
+ 1, but with rules:
- As in as much specifics as you can.
- The old prinicple of if you are making a claim, you are the one who should back it up. This may be difficult, but then there are sources of information out there (even just the C&AG site). If you can't back it up, don't state it as fact.
- If it is just an idea as in "could we centralise IT for whole of CS/PS" then cleary say as you're in a position of not knowing if it can be done, don't state it as fact.
- If it is your idea and it doesn't turn out to be workable, don't take offence and get on with your day.
- If it is an idea that is only partly workable (i.e some departments but not HSE, Gardai etc) then can we agree on the bits that are workable?
- A saving of €2 million is still a saving. In the context of €4 billion, it isn't much, but every little counts. Don't discount just because it seems small.
- etc
Complainer
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Re: Any chance of a truce?
Can we start new threads to get views from well-intentioned but largely ignorant bystanders on;
- How Ford should design their new Focus
- How Elan should develop their next drug therapy
- How Bank Of Ireland should develop their business banking service
- How Microsoft should develop Windows 8
For each poster who posts their suggestions about the public service - think about your own organisation and your own functional speciality. And think about how much value you would expect to get from an interested bystander who read a couple of biased newspaper articles about your area a few months ago?
Folks - you are vastly overestimating the value of amatuer opinion. In developing public policy and public services, there is a role for consultation with the public, and this is normally a standard part of the process already. The idea that a gang of interested bystanders are going to fix the problems of the public service with some Internet postings is just ludicrous. This stuff is hard. This stuff requires experience and knowledge.
Can we start new threads to get views from well-intentioned but largely ignorant bystanders on;
- How Ford should design their new Focus
- How Elan should develop their next drug therapy
- How Bank Of Ireland should develop their business banking service
- How Microsoft should develop Windows 8
For each poster who posts their suggestions about the public service - think about your own organisation and your own functional speciality. And think about how much value you would expect to get from an interested bystander who read a couple of biased newspaper articles about your area a few months ago?
Folks - you are vastly overestimating the value of amatuer opinion. In developing public policy and public services, there is a role for consultation with the public, and this is normally a standard part of the process already. The idea that a gang of interested bystanders are going to fix the problems of the public service with some Internet postings is just ludicrous. This stuff is hard. This stuff requires experience and knowledge.
Re: Any chance of a truce?
I think the point, at least initially, is more for public sector/civil service posters to make the suggestions - not just anybody. At least some of them should have sensible informed views no?
I don't think anyone is expecting ingenious panaceas. But we have to start somewhere.
I think the point, at least initially, is more for public sector/civil service posters to make the suggestions - not just anybody. At least some of them should have sensible informed views no?
I don't think anyone is expecting ingenious panaceas. But we have to start somewhere.
Complainer
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Re: Any chance of a truce?
I'm sure they do, but I've no idea why you expect them to post them here. They should be working on them within their own organisations/networks/unions etc. Sorry this is bad news, but AAM does not run the public sector.