Legal bedroom size

[ailbhe]

This may be the wrong forum so feel free to move it.

My ex has our child once a week overnight and once a month for 2 overnights.
He has rented out rooms and now wants to move the child into what was the walk in wardrobe off his bedroom.
It measures 1.8m x 1.9m.

Is there a legal minimum size for a bedroom?

 

[jhegarty]

I don't think there is a legal minimum unless you want to rent it.

 

[shesells]

Not sure about size but my main concern would be ventilation and natural light. Most wardrobes have neither!

 

[MOB]

In a house where there are strangers, I would be happier knowing that the child is in effect sharing a room with his\her Dad rather than having a separate bedroom. The walk-in is presumably a bit like an annex to the main bedroom.

Even something as relatively harmless as a tenant with a few drinks on them accidentally blundering into a kids bedroom could create all sorts of difficulties. (I hate the 'live in fear' mentality that blurs our perception of child-safety issues, but in this case, I think it is just common sense).

Depending on age, kids really don't need much space. We have four children aged 9 down in one bedroom ( we also have two empty bedrooms which none of them yet wants to take). Even in that room, you would often see one or more beds empty with 2 or 3 kids crammed in together on one bed.

So I wouldn't really sweat it.

 

[ailbhe]

There is a window in the wardrobe. Child is 7.

I would prefer she sleeps in with her father which she does the one night a week that she sleeps over.
This was a suggestion in relation to him having his new partner over when the child was there.
I suggested partner could sleep in the spare room the one night a month that they would both be there. Not an option he wants. Would prefer to have child in the wardrobe.

It's not like an annex in that it has a door. I think a cubicle off his room is a better description.

 

[truthseeker]

ailbhe - I read your thread over on boards on this issue - Ive actually been thinking about it ever since, although I wasnt able to reply at the time, I will do so here.

I think your ex needs to cop himself on. There are a number of things I see wrong with his reasoning on this issue.

1: Your child (especially at age 7) is going to feel like a guest who is in the way if she is expected to move beds around depending on who else stays. Your ex should be respecting her space and allowing her the same space whenever she stays over.

2: I dont think a walk in wardrobe is suitable accomodation for a child on an overnight in her fathers. Would she be expected to stay in that cramped space with the door open or closed?

3: Following on from 2, it is not appropriate for your child to be sleeping in a bedroom where 2 adults in a relationship share a bed. She is 7 years old. If the walk in wardrobe door would be left open its the same as being in the room with them. It doesnt set a good example, your ex must be mad to consider it at all.

The appropriate solution is that your ex's GF sleeps in a different room on the 1 night a month where they would both be there.

Your ex needs to put the welfare of your child first.

 

[ali]

ailbhe - I read your thread over on boards on this issue - Ive actually been thinking about it ever since, although I wasnt able to reply at the time, I will do so here.

I think your ex needs to cop himself on. There are a number of things I see wrong with his reasoning on this issue.

1: Your child (especially at age 7) is going to feel like a guest who is in the way if she is expected to move beds around depending on who else stays. Your ex should be respecting her space and allowing her the same space whenever she stays over.

2: I dont think a walk in wardrobe is suitable accomodation for a child on an overnight in her fathers. Would she be expected to stay in that cramped space with the door open or closed?

3: Following on from 2, it is not appropriate for your child to be sleeping in a bedroom where 2 adults in a relationship share a bed. She is 7 years old. If the walk in wardrobe door would be left open its the same as being in the room with them. It doesnt set a good example, your ex must be mad to consider it at all.

The appropriate solution is that your ex's GF sleeps in a different room on the 1 night a month where they would both be there.

Your ex needs to put the welfare of your child first.

Agree totally with above.

 

[ailbhe]

Thanks.
I was just wondering about the legal side of it, if it were even legal to put a child into a bedroom of those dimensions.
Seems a mute point now anyway as I put my foot down and refused the wardrobe option for pretty much all the reasons that truthseeker laid out. I want her raised by him with the same standards I apply in my own home and I think a 7 year old girl seeing her dad sharing a bed with someone who is effectively a stranger is wrong for many reasons.

So he has reverted to the one night a week, the child will not be spending one night and one day a month with him and his partner and of course, it's my fault, I'm unreasonable and he is refusing to speak to me about it or anything else for that matter.
Sigh.
But thats a whole other thread really

 

[truthseeker]

I think you were right to put your foot down on this. It will no doubt come up again with him, the only advice I have is to remain calm and matter of fact about it all, dont get dragged in emotionally, its inappropriate for a child of your daughters age to sleep in a bedroom with 2 adults in a relationship sharing a bed - end of. If he cant see that he needs his head examined.
Itd be different if they were all off camping and each in their own sleeping bag sharing tent space etc... but in your ex's home, for the child to be relugated to the wardrobe so her fathers GF can share his bed is just not on. Why cant the GF stay another night, or stay in a different room on that particular night? Youd think she'd have a bit of cop on as well - sounds like a pair of them in it tbh.

I wouldnt imagine any legalities exist about childrens sleeping space, that would be fairly nanny state-ish!!

 

[ali]

I wouldnt imagine any legalities exist about childrens sleeping space, that would be fairly nanny state-ish!!

Funny enough there are when it comes to providing minimum floor space per head in bedrooms for Bean an ti in the Gaeltacht.

A

 

[ailbhe]

I think I was clutching at straws looking for the legalities. He has a tendency to make me feel as though I am the most unreasonable person in the world.
As for why the new partner cannot stay another night, the purpose of it all was to begin to introduce them and have them get to know each other which I don't take issue with.
As for why she cannot stay in the available bedroom, I have no idea. Apparantly he has come up with a solution (the wardrobe) and I am being unreasonable in not accepting this solution. Yada yada ya......

To be honest I think I'd be better able to reason with the partner than with him. She only hears his point of view and I'm sure he puts a lovely spin on it for her

 

[ailbhe]

Funny enough there are when it comes to providing minimum floor space per head in bedrooms for Bean an ti in the Gaeltacht.

A

That is more what I was thinking. I know years ago when my sister applied for a local authority house (she was living at home at the time), they came and measured her room and my nieces room. I just thought there might be some regulation even if it were to be aimed at boarding schools, foster children etc.

 

[truthseeker]

Funny enough there are when it comes to providing minimum floor space per head in bedrooms for Bean an ti in the Gaeltacht.

A

Ah but dont you know minding other peoples children is considered more important than minding your own in the law!!

Ailbhe - youre not being a bit unreasonable - maybe you should ask both your ex and the partner over for a calm discussion on it? Then she would hear your side of things.

I just dont see how any woman could agree with this mad proposal of his and think its ok.

 

[ailbhe]

Maybe you should ask both your ex and the partner over for a calm discussion on it? Then she would hear your side of things.

I just dont see how any woman could agree with this mad proposal of his and think its ok.

I don't either but she is very young so perhaps thats why she doesn't really grasp the implications.
I also can't envisage them accepting any sort of invitation to mine lol. I don't think it's remain calm. I'd try but not sure I could keep my cool when faced with the pair of them and I'd say the feeling is mutual

The long and the short of it is that he puts his partners needs above the child. This means I have to work trebly hard to ensure child doesn't wind up a complete wreck and they just don't seem to care about anything or anyone other than themselves.
The ex has refused to respond to any attempts at conversation about the subject in order to try to come to a resolution as the child is quite disappointed, having been promised more time with dad and now being let down again.
It is always a case with him that once it goes his way it's fine. If I make any attempt to alter or imply that I am not happy with his proposed theories he just goes into shut down mode where conversation isn't even an option.

 

[truthseeker]

It just sounds like immaturity on his part to refuse to even engage if things are not to his liking. Sometimes in life we have to deal with things we dont relish, if he hasnt realised this at this stage of his life he probably never will.

All you can do is stick to your guns about how you feel it is appropriate for your child to be raised, try to detach emotionally from your ex, dont bother trying to open up conversations with him if he goes into shut down mode etc...

I suppose Im saying to just get on with your own life, allow the access that you are happy is appropriate and dont bother fighting it out on the rest of it. I know from your other thread court isnt an option.

You are doing the best you can, you cant be expected to compromise on your daughters upbringing when something so inappropriate is suggested. And dont feel bad about it, you are doing what is right for her. Sometimes the right thing isnt the easiest thing.

 

[DavyJones]

The child isn't an accessory that can be put in a wardrobe at the end of the day.

 

[Bronte]

If the wardrobe is the only space the father has and the only space he can afford then I don't see the problem if the child doesn't have a problem with it. Kids are very adaptable and seeing his dad and being in a safe place is more important than the size of the room.

There seems to be a moral issue about the fact that he is sleeping with another person whom his is in a relationship with, I think that's his business. I don't get the niceties of the room being off the bedroom or being a seperate bedroom, we don't all have that luxury. I'm sure they as a couple will take care while the child is there not to disturb the child. (Radio/close the door/ensure child is asleep etc). If the OP is in a relationship and brings a partner home what is the difference?

There are many Irish people who shared their parents rooms until quite an older age due to lack of space, there are many who shared a bed or bedroom with loads of their siblings and mixed siblings at that, it's not ideal but if you have 10 people in a 2 or 3 bedroomed house that's what's going to happen.

 

[Bronco Lane]

He has rented out rooms and now wants to move the child into what was the walk in wardrobe off his bedroom.
/quote]

If he has rented out the other rooms where is his partner supposed to sleep when his child is over?

 

[truthseeker]

Bronte - usually the child sleeps in the fathers room in a seperate bed when she stays over. There is another spare room but as there is a male housemate in the house its preferable for the child and her father to share a room on overnights. On one night a month the childs overnight coincides with the fathers GF staying over. The GF is a stranger to the child.

It is inappropriate for a child of 7 to witness her father and stranger GF sharing a bed - you may think otherwise, personally I think it is inappropriate. It does not set a good example to the child, the father and GF do not live together, and the GF has no relationship with the child.

Fathers solution to this is to put child in wardrobe.

An alternative solution would be on that one night a month the GF stays in spare room. Father refuses to entertain this notion.

The child is already confused/upset about situation with break up, new GF, father letting her down with broken access agreements etc... (I know some of this from another thread from OP on boards.ie).

I agree with OP that the father is not putting the childs welfare first. Child is going to feel like an unwelcome visitor if she gets relegated to wardrobe when GF (who is a stranger to child) stays. Father should be respecting his childs space and not expecting her to go in wardrobe when his GF could quite reasonably stay in spare room ONE night a month - its not a huge concession on himself and GF if she were to do that. Its only 12 nights a year, and perhaps as child gets to know GF things will change, or as child gets older she herself can stay in spare room (or if housemate moves out etc...).

I think the OP is being perfectly reasonable in her expectations that her child is not relegated to wardrobe in favour of a stranger to the child sleeping in the fathers bed with him - as the childs introduction to the GF. OP also mentioned in other thread that counseller had recommended slow intro of child and new GF and father had agreed to this (child quite upset at new GF and feels abandoned by father), but now suddenly wants intro to consist of child being relegated to wardrobe while new GF sleeps in fathers bed. The whole thing just smacks of the father not putting his childs welfare first.

The OP is perfectly open to child forming relationship with new GF, but would prefer do go about it as counseller suggested, not as father is suggesting. Another issue for OP is father shuts down and refuses to communicate if she disagrees with any aspect of his plans and will not compromise, so now that she has raised areas of concern he is unwilling to have any conversation on the subject unless OP gives in to his plan with no changes. OP is concerned that if she disallows this scenario child now suffers because she was promised more time with father by father but once he shuts down no compromise is possible - and OP is not happy with original plan.

 

[ailbhe]

Bronte - usually the child sleeps in the fathers room in a seperate bed when she stays over. There is another spare room but as there is a male housemate in the house its preferable for the child and her father to share a room on overnights. On one night a month the childs overnight coincides with the fathers GF staying over. The GF is a stranger to the child.

It is inappropriate for a child of 7 to witness her father and stranger GF sharing a bed - you may think otherwise, personally I think it is inappropriate. It does not set a good example to the child, the father and GF do not live together, and the GF has no relationship with the child.

Fathers solution to this is to put child in wardrobe.

An alternative solution would be on that one night a month the GF stays in spare room. Father refuses to entertain this notion.

The child is already confused/upset about situation with break up, new GF, father letting her down with broken access agreements etc... (I know some of this from another thread from OP on boards.ie).

I agree with OP that the father is not putting the childs welfare first. Child is going to feel like an unwelcome visitor if she gets relegated to wardrobe when GF (who is a stranger to child) stays. Father should be respecting his childs space and not expecting her to go in wardrobe when his GF could quite reasonably stay in spare room ONE night a month - its not a huge concession on himself and GF if she were to do that. Its only 12 nights a year, and perhaps as child gets to know GF things will change, or as child gets older she herself can stay in spare room (or if housemate moves out etc...).

I think the OP is being perfectly reasonable in her expectations that her child is not relegated to wardrobe in favour of a stranger to the child sleeping in the fathers bed with him - as the childs introduction to the GF. OP also mentioned in other thread that counseller had recommended slow intro of child and new GF and father had agreed to this (child quite upset at new GF and feels abandoned by father), but now suddenly wants intro to consist of child being relegated to wardrobe while new GF sleeps in fathers bed. The whole thing just smacks of the father not putting his childs welfare first.

The OP is perfectly open to child forming relationship with new GF, but would prefer do go about it as counseller suggested, not as father is suggesting. Another issue for OP is father shuts down and refuses to communicate if she disagrees with any aspect of his plans and will not compromise, so now that she has raised areas of concern he is unwilling to have any conversation on the subject unless OP gives in to his plan with no changes. OP is concerned that if she disallows this scenario child now suffers because she was promised more time with father by father but once he shuts down no compromise is possible - and OP is not happy with original plan.

Lol, yup, thats pretty much it in a nutshell.

If the wardrobe is the only space the father has and the only space he can afford then I don't see the problem if the child doesn't have a problem with it

I agree but the child has a problem with it. To quote her "but what if I can't sleep because they are kissing". Child was unaware up to this that girlfriend was even sharing dads bed. That caught me by surprise because she saw me and her dad share a bed. But when I mentioned that GF would be in dads room she laughed and said "sure, she sleeps in the green room" (spare room). The innocence of children.
As truthseeker says there is another bedroom but due to new male housemate child is at risk sleeping there (which her father agrees with me on).

There seems to be a moral issue about the fact that he is sleeping with another person whom his is in a relationship with, I think that's his business.

I agree that it's his business until it is a case that my daughter is witnessing it.

I don't get the niceties of the room being off the bedroom or being a seperate bedroom, we don't all have that luxury.

The separate bedroom would mean child would be able to go to toilet in the night and get up in the morning without disturbing dad/seeing him in bed with girlfriend. The walk in means there is no way out of the room other than through the dads bedroom.

I'm sure they as a couple will take care while the child is there not to disturb the child. (Radio/close the door/ensure child is asleep etc).

I have my doubts. Within a week of myself and him splitting up he had photos of him and new partner all over the house which greatly confused child who was only 5 at the time. Appropriateness wouldn't be his forte.

If the OP is in a relationship and brings a partner home what is the difference?

I wouldn't introduce my child to a man and the same night have us all sleeping in the same room.

There are many Irish people who shared their parents rooms until quite an older age due to lack of space, there are many who shared a bed or bedroom with loads of their siblings and mixed siblings at that, it's not ideal but if you have 10 people in a 2 or 3 bedroomed house that's what's going to happen.

Bit of a difference between sharing with parents and siblings and sharing with your dad and a woman you just met.
I've reiterated to him that once the child gets to know the partner, they can all share a room. I just feel initially it's not appropriate.
I also suggested he introduce them without the sleepover aspect and he has ignored that suggestion. He insists on the wardrobe or nothing at all. Not open for discussion unless I give in.