Land registry Vs memorandum or deeds

J

Johnanon

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Hi everyone - this is a messy one , I'd like some advice please on how to progress
Bear with me on this it's messy as the title states !
So bought house mid 2000s , from a couple , who bought house from the original owners - they were council rent tenants (99 year leasehold , but I didn't know that at the time) so we went ahead all ok no issues until I recently did a land registry search and found the folio as part of a master folio - no sign of us , the ppl we bought from or any burden of mortgage on the title . I contacted the council who've agreed to sell me the title for a nominal fee , as a freehold title .
Now , here's where it gets sticky , the original owners died and their kids sold the house to the ppl we bought from , the two solicitors involved created a memorandum of deeds and used this to sell the property, twice . I have the banks original docs and the land reg search is blank . The solicitor we dealt with on our side is disbarred for an unrelated issue and their solicitor is nearly retired. The council were very surprised the house had been sold twice when it was not the people's property to sell technically - seeing as we have adverse possession rights they are selling me the title as a freehold. No burden of mortgage. I am 17 yes in never missed a payment, and I'm wondering how could the bank sell a house they didn't own or have right to sell? We didn't know it was a leasehold we were buying , but obviously it wasn't made clear to us , now I own full title without any burden of mortgage, what is my position with the bank? Yes we agreed to get the loan from them , but how can they sell a house the people "selling" didnt own? I don't know how to approach this correctly with the bank any insight or advice would be great or maybe someone has come across something similar? Cheers
 
The folio btw says the council has the freehold title on the house- since it was built , the land registry never heard of me or my wife , and the council have said once they change the title to us it will be the first registration of the property
 
Johnanon said:
but how can they sell a house the people "selling" didnt own?
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Did you buy the house from the bank?

Your issue is with your now disbarred solicitor.

In terms of the bank, you borrowed the money, so you owe it. The only thing that's changed is they potentially no longer have security against the loan.
 
Johnanon said:
Bear with me on this it's messy as the title states !
So bought house mid 2000s , from a couple , who bought house from the original owners
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Johnanon said:
I'm wondering how could the bank sell a house they didn't own or have right to sell?
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What bank? No bank sold the property according to the above.
Johnanon said:
We didn't know it was a leasehold we were buying
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Your solicitor presumably should have discovered this and told you?
Johnanon said:
? I don't know how to approach this correctly with the bank any insight or advice would be great or maybe someone has come across something similar? Cheers
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What bank are you referring to here? Your mortgage lender? What do you expect to achieve here?
 
So , we bought with a mortgage from tsb. I'm not disputing the fact we borrowed from them , but I'm almost 100% sure the couple we bought from bought the house with a cash loan from the children of the deceased original leaseholders. If the land registry title is state guaranteed and supercedes any deeds , and I have freehold title over the land with no burden of mortgage, then what claim to the house does tsb have? Regardless of them lending us the money , the item ,the house in this case , was not the original sellers or the subsequent sellers house to sell. It belonged to the council . I don't know how the bank missed it , it was mortgage frenzy time in 06 , but it would seem weird ?? I do t know what I want to achieve, but I at least have a claim over the property which has been extensively Renovated now , tsb have a set of deeds which at best were invented, at worst obtained and written fraudulently knowing the council actually had freehold title and given the hassle it would cause on the second sale of the property, was conveniently ignored - I mean , had we gone to sell the house at any point it would have been a right mess -and no , our solicitor did not tell us it was a leasehold we were buying !
 
So you now have the title sorted and you still owe the lender the balance of the loan. What's the issue at this stage exactly?
 
I now own the property. The bank can't repossess it or make any claim to it . If I stopped paying the mortgage as of now , what could they do? Their documents are not in order , the deeds they used to lend the money are worthless , and they lent us the money without doing due diligence, they paid the ppl we bought from the selling price and put us on the hook for 35 yrs - they secured the loan against a property that did not belong to the seller . So how is this my problem? My house, my land , and the money they paid for the house to the seller that they have been charging me for the last 17 yrs was not theirs to sell . So that's the issue exactly, I feel like a bank who is that negligent in their dealings , and who would happily evict and repossess if no payment was forthcoming, should have the same logic applied . The land is mine , if they want me to pay mortgage and they have a claim on the house , then I want ground rent on my land that is state guaranteed as mine , full and free
Some craic will be had tormenting them at least
 
The owner of property that is registered in the Land Registry will have what is known as a folio which is a unique identifier number. This document states the name and address of the owner and includes a description and map of the property. The folio is conclusive evidence of the person’s ownership of the property and is State guaranteed.

If the title to the property is in the Registry of Deeds, it is referred to as ‘unregistered land.’ The Registry of Deeds records deeds and transactions affecting unregistered property in Ireland. It is not an official guarantee of legal ownership or title to a property.

Note -
not an official guarantee of legal ownership or title to a property. This is what the bank has.

The folio is conclusive evidence of the person’s ownership of the property and is State guaranteed. - this is what I have .
 
Who wouldn't like to be mortgage free? Rules are the rules and if they didn't do due diligence, and it works out monetarily in my favour I won't be complaining.
Are you upset at the thought of a bank losing out on interest on a loan? I have repaid the principal by now at least , the bank have got their pound of flesh so to speak. Is it a moral objection you have ? If it comes to it , I would like to have my mortgage wiped , yes, and il go home every night and sleep like a baby , will not cost me a thought. In fact I'd be rather pleased with myself and smug about it.
Whether that happens or not is to be determined, but you seem to be irate at the idea that I'd be trying to avert paying the rest of my mortgage on a technicality that is a very real possibility at this point. If it was determined that you had no obligation legally to pay back the rest of your mortgage would you still pay it?? Doubtful, and if you decided to press on and continue paying out of some misguided sense of financial obligation to a bank ? I don't think there's many that would agree with you - I can easily afford my mortgage, that's not the issue , I just will not pay it to a bank who have no claim to a property I own , free of any financial burdens.
Like I said , worst case for me Is the bank want money for the house they mortgaged , and I want rent for the land they are using to facilitate that mortgage. I want back rent too 17 years worth - should be an easy negotiation, we'll call the rent a bit more than the mortgage IL register as a landlord and invoice them monthly. That should shake the tree a little and we'll see what happens
 
The bank didn't give any money to the vendor, the bank gave the money to you/your agent and you gave it to the seller. It was for you/your agent to determine that the vendor has good title.

It would appear that you have now perfected title and therefore have no problem, but you would prefer to have a fight because there *may* have been a problem.

Also, you have a liability and you have an asset. Even if the loan were not secured on the asset, if you were to stop paying, the bank could get a judgement against you for the balance of the loan and get a charge over the asset then. This would apply even if you had a personal loan and a mortgage free house.

Your idea that the bank have any more involvement in your purchase than funding it is misguided.
 
Bank has an obligation to do a land registry search . They have an obligation to ensure that the money they lend is secured against an asset that is tied to the mortgage, via the land registry and deeds, that's why the bank don't release your deeds until you have paid your mortgage. Your assumption that the bank are just money lenders in a mortgage situation is misguided. There are laws and principles involved, there are legal obligations, there is an endless trail of legal issues that must be all correct and in order , in order for the bank to proceed .
 
A bit harsh , all I want to do is make sure that everything is in order - if it isn't well then what am I to do about that? I've already been on to the law society about it and they are involved at this point in terms of the negligence on the part of the solicitor - not much they can do now but there is a fund for righting malpractice issues , the bank to be fair to them lent the money in good faith , but they were very lacking in their due diligence.
Good faith doth not a sound legal contract make.
If the situation were reversed and I owed them monies for years of underpayment due to to a mistake on my side say , do you think for a second they would be generous and write it off? It already happened to us with a term loan that they "forgot" to apply interest charges and at the end of the term loaded another 3k onto a loan and threatened us with legal action if we didn't pay it even though it was their mistake, they maintained that the interest was due , regardless of who was at fault , it was a variable interest loan but they fixed it for the term , then at the end even though they had made the mistake to not change the rate monthly they loaded the loan with the outstanding interest - so forgive me if I'm not sympathetic to the banks in general, if you think me digging deeper into my issue to assert what rights and entitlements I have to the ownership of my property is evil you need to quit the early rising an stay in bed a bit longer
 
Johnanon said:
Bank has an obligation to do a land registry search .
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Where does it say in the mortgage contract that you signed that any such obligation forms part of that contract?

Johnanon said:
A bit harsh , all I want to do is make sure that everything is in order
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Really sounds like you're looking for a way of getting out of paying what you owe. If you are repaying as per the agreement and the balance is correspondingly reducing, then all is in order.
 
Have a meeting today with another solicitor who is doing some more work on this il keep you all updated
 
This sounds like you may not be fully aware of the position here as what you are saying in relation to title does not make much sense. Thats not a swipe at you, its a really complex area and many conveyancing solicitors have trouble figuring out title in some cases.

However, your mortgage document will state that you agree to pay off the loan. Your loan document will also say as much. In the event of default, your bank can pursue for a money judgment on that basis and then force the sale of your home to recoup the loss. Not having a mortgage registered is not fatal to this process.

Your mortgage will also say that you undertake to put a mortgage in place over your home and that promise is still binding on you. The bank can still require a mortgage to be put in place even at this late stage.
 
Johnanon said:
I now own the property. The bank can't repossess it or make any claim to it . If I stopped paying the mortgage as of now , what could they do? Their documents are not in order , the deeds they used to lend the money are worthless , and they lent us the money without doing due diligence, they paid the ppl we bought from the selling price and put us on the hook for 35 yrs - they secured the loan against a property that did not belong to the seller . So how is this my problem? My house, my land , and the money they paid for the house to the seller that they have been charging me for the last 17 yrs was not theirs to sell . So that's the issue exactly, I feel like a bank who is that negligent in their dealings , and who would happily evict and repossess if no payment was forthcoming, should have the same logic applied . The land is mine , if they want me to pay mortgage and they have a claim on the house , then I want ground rent on my land that is state guaranteed as mine , full and free
Some craic will be had tormenting them at least
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So to sum up your digging into bonkers legal stuff to justify you not paying a mortgage the property you live in which you borrowed for in order to own it?

It will be great craic when you stop paying and they seek to repossess, and they have bigger pockets than you. Are you talking to some of those lunatics that were around after the Celtic Tiger preaching Freeman nonsense?
 
Johnanon said:
Are you upset at the thought of a bank losing out on interest on a loan? I have repaid the principal by now at least , the bank have got their pound of flesh so to speak. Is it a moral objection you have ?
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There we have it. Ok to borrow money but seems to think banks should give out money for free. Like how dare a bank charge interest. I should have realised from the first gobblygook land registry/The Reg of Deeds nonsense with a whole load of other salt and pepper thrown in that this was Freeman stuff. I've a relation spouted that kind of stuff and lost everything.
 
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