Irish school (gaelscoil)-beneficial or not?

[nacho_libre]

All the arguments that Irish is our language and should survive are fine and dandy.... but there are alot of people out there (lets say 75%) who are not brilliantly academic, and having to learn a language which is no longer used is a considerable waste of time and distracts them from what I would call "more useful" subjects... that might actually get them a job and allow them to live a more productive life.

I mean, how many jobs can TG4 create anyway!!

I have nothing against Irish... just the amount of focus it gets.

I don't think Irish speakers should get 10% bonus points.

I think the money spent on Irish and Irish schools could be spent better elsewhere.

Since when did you have to be "brilliantly academic" to be brought up bilingual?

I'm sure you'll find that any child in a gaelscoil learns both English and Irish with
relative ease. It's only seen as "a considerable waste of time" by those who never
had the aptitude/interest in learning the language and who hold some type of
resentment now towards it as a result.

 

[MissRibena]

It's only seen as "a considerable waste of time" by those who never had the aptitude/interest in learning the language and who hold some type of resentment now towards it as a result.

Ah now nacho_libre, it's statements like that and the definition of patriotism that unflinchingly uses words like "fatherland" to define it that give the likes of me the heeby jeebies about a certain contingent among the gaelscoil protagonists.

If Gaelscoils truly are so brilliant and are such a benefit to EVERYONE in society, then all schools should be Irishspeaking and the benefit of this wonderousness should be freely available to all children and not just subsidised and promoted for a few.

Not everybody's idea of being "Irish" means the same thing (that's the trouble with patriotism btw). For me it's a far more mixed bag than the Fado, fado stuff. And for some of us with a far more loose/liberal/open definition of what Irish means, it may not be even an important part of how we define ourselves. My nationality may be a part of me but it would come way down the list of my definition of myself. I personally feel this is far healthier than an over-emphasis on national identity (which is required to justify Irish-speaking schools in the first instance). I believe that it is far better to emphasise peoples' similarities while acknowledging the differences (that's why kids with learning difficulties are IN the classroom) than to highlight and re-inforce their differences. A government that gives added incentives to these kinds of schools is contradicting itself.

Rebecca

 

[Gordanus]

I wonder if a child who is already bilingual would benefit from a gaelscoil or would it just be too much or confusing?

Er... my family is already bilingual. Irish was my child's 3rd language. No problemo. Brains like sponges, to quote somebody else.

There have been in Ireland for a considerable period of time, a French and a German school (since the 60s I think). This enabled parents who were biliingual, or from France/German speaking countries, to have their child educated in that language. I don't doubt that we will see more of these. In large cities in Europe, there are International Schools to cater to the children of diplomats and UN staff.

MissR, I don't think you can extrapolate this kind of patriotism from what nacho says. I went through all his/her posts and couldn't find it. Also, if you look at the location of Gaelscoilleanna, you will find a lot of them in -dare I say it?- working class areas. The ones in my (middle-class) area, have a significant enrolement from the local flats.

 

[SarahMc]

and having to learn a language which is no longer used is a considerable waste of time and distracts them from what I would call "more useful" subjects... that might actually get them a job and allow them to live a more productive life.

Thats the thing, children in gaelscoilleana don't learn Irish, anymore than children in English speaking primary schools learn English, its just "there". A method of communication.

There is research to show how bilingualism from an early age helps cognitative development. There is also high levels of parental involvement in both gaelscoileanna and educate together schools that you don't necessarily find in traditional denominational schools.

However the gaelscoilleanna are not for every child, and in fact can hamper development of children with dyslexia or dyspraxia.

 

[rabbit]

we should start up french or spanish schools.... that way they would get all the same benefits, plus they would learn a language that will be of some benefit to them.

I know I will offend people by saying this but apart from the heritage aspect Irish has no use whatsoever.

I find it sad that people are sending their kids to Irish schools in order to escape large class sizes etc... rather than because Irish is useful.

hear hear. It is sad that our kids leave secondary school being so poor in continental languages. I once witnessed a group of elderly German tourists arriving at an Irish hotel and none of the staff being able to speak to them in their native language.

 

[tiroileain]

Originally Posted by nacho_libre http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=344075#post344075
It's only seen as "a considerable waste of time" by those who never had the aptitude/interest in learning the language and who hold some type of resentment now towards it as a result.

Ah now nacho_libre, it's statements like that and the definition of patriotism that unflinchingly uses words like "fatherland" to define it that give the likes of me the heeby jeebies about a certain contingent among the gaelscoil protagonists.

Did you quote the right sentence? I'm not sure how B was deduced from A?

If Gaelscoils truly are so brilliant and are such a benefit to EVERYONE in society, then all schools should be Irishspeaking and the benefit of this wonderousness should be freely available to all children and not just subsidised and promoted for a few.

No, there there should be a choice, and parents should decide what they think is best for their children. I'm not sure who said that Gaelscoileanna were a benefit to EVERYONE in society? It's not for everyone, and never will be.

Can I respond to cynisism with some more? Okay, imagine you have a young son. Let's take the fascist, white middle class, fado fado, romantic, green tinted spectacles, gaelic Ireland elements and "protagonists" out of a particular Gaelscoil in your area. Assume also that the local English school and Gaelscoil are now on a completely level playing field, the only difference being the language of instruction. So your son has could be fluent after a couple of years in an additional, completely useless language if he goes to the Gaelscoil. But completely free remember from fascist brainwashing. Would you consider it?

Not everybody's idea of being "Irish" means the same thing (that's the trouble with patriotism btw). For me it's a far more mixed bag than the Fado, fado stuff. And for some of us with a far more loose/liberal/open definition of what Irish means, it may not be even an important part of how we define ourselves. My nationality may be a part of me but it would come way down the list of my definition of myself. I personally feel this is far healthier than an over-emphasis on national identity (which is required to justify Irish-speaking schools in the first instance).

Broadly agree except for the "Fado, fado stuff" - as Irish is a living language, and many would like to keep it that way, to me it's "inniu, inniu stuff" And I don't think any justification is required for an Irish speaking school in, what country are we talking about here again, oh yes, Ireland.

I believe that it is far better to emphasise peoples' similarities while acknowledging the differences (that's why kids with learning difficulties are IN the classroom) than to highlight and re-inforce their differences. A government that gives added incentives to these kinds of schools is contradicting itself.

It's just a language, most of the people (especially those in non-native English speaking countries) are bilingual. Children in Gaelscoileanna also speak English, so it doesn't make them different as such to those that don't go to Gaelscoileanna. Should we propose that the schools in the Gaeltacht areas stop teaching through Irish, because that promotes difference? Or why do you argue against Irish-medium instruction, but at the same time argue for instruction through German, Spanish, French etc. in a previous most? I repeat, it's just a language, a means of communication.

 

[lucylou]

MissR, I don't think you can extrapolate this kind of patriotism from what nacho says. I went through all his/her posts and couldn't find it. Also, if you look at the location of Gaelscoilleanna, you will find a lot of them in -dare I say it?- working class areas. The ones in my (middle-class) area, have a significant enrolement from the local flats.

Firstly, I disagree with your location theory, there is a large Gaelscoil in Monkstown, one of the most affluent areas of South County Dublin. Children from a very mixed background attend there.

Sorry, I don't understand the connection between location of the Gaelscoileanna and the antiquated system of social class, in relation to patriotism?
What is your point here?

 

[aonfocaleile]

Also, if you look at the location of Gaelscoilleanna, you will find a lot of them in -dare I say it?- working class areas. The ones in my (middle-class) area, have a significant enrolement from the local flats.

How is this relevant? There are Gaelscoileanna in almost every part of the country, educating children from various backgrounds.

I don't see why social class and peoples feelings about nationalism and patriotism are being brought into this discussion. Irish is a language and those who speak that language are not all of the same opinions on these matters, in the same way speakers of English and other languages would have differing views.

 

[MissRibena]

I'm not arguing for the abolishment of these schools! I'm just against their promotion over the usual state schools. These schools should be treated as private schools.

In my rural area (and things may be different in cities, I wouldn't know), the local gaeilscoil got a major grant to build a lovely brand new state-of-the art school. Fab. Except that this funding hasn't been matched (or anything like matched) in the regular state primary school which is falling down around the ears of the kids, with a result that parents now have very little choice BUT to send their children to the Irish-speaking school. The situation is exacerbated by the number of parents ferrying their kids out from the local town to the Gaelscoil. In this case this is where the class issue arises. There are very few non-nationals, travellers, etc. in the Gaelscoil - who would ferry them out from town (where most of them live) and what choice do they have?

The fact is that the area can probably only support one primary school and IMO the regular state school should always get priority funding. Each to their own but I really don't like what I see happening in our area.

Rebecca

 

[Betsy Og]

I also heard that theory that some people send their kids to gaelscoils to keep them away from non-nationals. While that would be distasteful it would hardly be the fault of the gaelscoil - I've never heard of there being any conditions laid down as to who can and cant attend.

I'd be pro-gaelscoils, havent been to one myself but have moderate ability as gaeilge. Would send my child to one except its not in the immediate locality and I think, on balance, it would be better for him to know all his neighbours.

I'd agree that the extra language being "there" wouldnt be a burden on kids and if parents werent so relentlessly negative about the language then the kids mightnt find it so bad. At least nowadays theres cartoons etc. as gaeilge which werent there in my day.

It seems to me to be a pity that a country wouldnt take a bit of pride in its language and be able to speak a minimum level (maybe the way it has been taught has a role here) - culture lost through laziness.

 

[Vanilla]

Er... my family is already bilingual.

Thanks Gordanus. Was wondering since my children are too ( or at least one is, the other is still a baby) and am considering sending them to a local Gaelscoil.

 

[Gordanus]

For one thing, in my area, the Irish schools are filled with children from a very narrow background range (i.e. white, middle-class, Irish Nationals).
The kind of "Irishness" that a Gaelscoil promotes (at least in my area); over-emphasis of heritage etc. is getting too close to nationalism and patriotism for my tastes.
Rebecca

LucyLou, Aonfocal eile..........I was responding to MissRibena's above remarks. I do not believe that Gaelscoileanna are the preserve of the middle class at all.

 

[Gordanus]

In my rural area (and things may be different in cities, I wouldn't know), the local gaeilscoil got a major grant to build a lovely brand new state-of-the art school. Fab. Except that this funding hasn't been matched (or

The fact is that the area can probably only support one primary school and IMO the regular state school should always get priority funding.

Rebecca

The Gaelscoil, like every other non-fee paying primary school, IS a regular state school.

 

[Bonafide]

I think you have to examine the situation in your own locality and decide what is best for your own children. My wife and I were surprised to find out for example that there was a better student teacher ratio in the local presentation school. We also noticed that our local Gaelscoil is housed in prefabs on the side of a busy road with poor perimeters. We also thought that if any of our children had special needs in the future the mainstream system would be better equipped to deal with them and perhaps also better able to identify such difficulties as a result.

We went to visit three different schools and spoke to the principals and some teachers in all cases. The fact that Irish was the chosen communication method in one of the schools was a factor but not the only factor. We chose the local presentation school for a number of factors. Although I think the usefulness of Irish is an emotive issue and is often staunchly defended, I did notice that no one has written a post in Irish in this thread…

 

[Betsy Og]

I did notice that no one has written a post in Irish in this thread…

Mar bhi se soleir nach raibh gaeilge ag gach duine.

 

[z107]

Does anyone know at what age computer skills are taught from?

 

[Bonafide]

I have a daughter in junior infants in a mainstream school who gets 1 on 1 on a computer once a week.

 

[annR]

I can't help but feel totally baffled by some of the anitpathy expressed towards Gaelscoileanna and Irish speaking in general. I was abroad for a while so maybe I've missed something. This stuff about Gaelscoileanna being elitist and middle class etc. where did all this come from?

Please don't tell me people are calling them elitist because the foreign children don't go there. Can it be the old national shame in all things Gaelic is alive and well and manifesting itself in new ways?

 

[terrysgirl33]

I'm not in this situation yet as my little one isn't due to start school untill 2008, but I also live in Lucan and am considering a gaelscoil. As far as I am concerned, the drawback is that there probably won't be as many pupils from other backgrounds there, but that's something we will have to deal with as parents. Otherwise, I see it as a good way for a child to learn a second language, by using it.

 

[PGD1]

now there's a good point... i would rather the government invest in computers than irish schools.

if you really really want your child to learn irish then you can speak irish to them, or send to to after school classes.