Has John O' Donoghue resigned yet

Complainer said:
This would need sign off by line manager, head of dept, senior finance manager and 2 x cheque/EFT signatories. This kind of abuse is not happening on a wide scale, if at all.
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Regarding my previous post (and not lightswitch's one)
I would hazard a guess that the line manager is a serious problem. If they know that the person is doing the journey, then the trip is signed off. The Head of dept more than likely trusts his direct reports and relies on them to keep expenses in line. The rest of the sign-offs just get the signed approval and pass no remarks.
 
Sunny said:
The whole system stinks and has for years. Imagine being paid almost €140 per day if you live 15.1 miles from your office and you come into work. Anyone within 15 miles gets €61. Doesn't exactly reflect real life does it?
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Where is this happening?
 
Birroc said:
Right so because you didn't see it, it doesn't happen?
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No - because you are not prepared to go 'on record' and get it stopped, it doesn't happen. If you are certain that this is happening, why are you not making it stop?
Pique318 said:
The Head of dept more than likely trusts his direct reports and relies on them to keep expenses in line. The rest of the sign-offs just get the signed approval and pass no remarks.
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That's not how it works in any organisation I've seen. The Head of Dept doesn't sign off blindly - they will have a good understanding of the level of travel being carried out by individuals in their organisation and will be querying unusual claims. Same applies for cheque signatories.

Pique318 said:
I couldn't believe it either but he was adamant that it was happening. I don't know the person or dept responsible but I encouraged him to report it too.
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AH I see - so it wasn't him doing it, but he knows a fella who is doing it. Just like all those taximen know 'de blacks' who get free taxis/free haircuts/free buggies etc?
 
Complainer said:
AH I see - so it wasn't him doing it, but he knows a fella who is doing it. Just like all those taximen know 'de blacks' who get free taxis/free haircuts/free buggies etc?
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Agreed. These vague stories about the Public Service, with no real details included, doing the rounds on these boards is getting a bit tiresome. Everybody has heard these stories from their next door neighbour, or their ex girlfriend or a guy they used to work with who now works in the Public Service yet those of us who do actually work in the PS have never encountered these incidents.
I was thinking of starting a rumour that all Civil Servants get two hours special leave every Friday to do their weekly grocery shop and seeing how long it was before I read it on here as an actual fact that someone heard from their cousin's boyfriend who works in the PS and knows for definite that it's true.
 
Complainer said:
No - because you are not prepared to go 'on record' and get it stopped, it doesn't happen. If you are certain that this is happening, why are you not making it stop?
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As I already said, I am no longer in public sector although right now I wish I was. And I already said, I also cheated on expenses myself. So you want me to 'talk to Joe' about that?
 
Complainer said:
AH I see - so it wasn't him doing it, but he knows a fella who is doing it. Just like all those taximen know 'de blacks' who get free taxis/free haircuts/free buggies etc?
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Yep, that's exactly it. 1st hand information is useless because I didn't see it happen myself! Jeez. Complainer, you would disagree with a dead man.

I believe it to be true. Someone whom I worked closely alongside and knew socially told me this on the next occasion I met them after they had joined the HSE. They were stunned to see how people worked and the rules they played by in the world he moved into.

At least I'm being honest and telling the truth, as I am sure that they were. Denying it with a harrumph and a "that could never happen. I don't believe it. You didn't see it so therefore it's rubbish' is really a quite weak reaction.
 
Pique318 said:
At least I'm being honest and telling the truth, as I am sure that they were. Denying it with a harrumph and a "that could never happen. I don't believe it. You didn't see it so therefore it's rubbish' is really a quite weak reaction.
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Pique

Complainer outlined the procedures that are normally in place in the Public Sector to ensure that this kind of thing shouldn't go on. If a small number of individuals are getting around it that is very, very wrong and should be investigated. However, implying that this kind of thing is endemic in the Public Service, on the basis of something someone told you in the pub about their individual area, is very unfair.
 
Pique318 said:
I believe it to be true. Someone whom I worked closely alongside and knew socially told me this on the next occasion I met them after they had joined the HSE. They were stunned to see how people worked and the rules they played by in the world he moved into.

At least I'm being honest and telling the truth, as I am sure that they were. Denying it with a harrumph and a "that could never happen. I don't believe it. You didn't see it so therefore it's rubbish' is really a quite weak reaction.
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You are of course entitled to believe that it is true, just as you are entitled to believe that the sun went blue and danced around the sky in Knock last week. There is no evidence to support either claim.

Why is it that there is never quite enough detail in these stories to facilitate reporting, but just enough to convince those who want to be convinced?
 
To imply that something cannot happen simply because procedures/codes of practice or whatever do not allow it is to be naive or in denial.

The HSE, local authorities and government depts for example ( like many private sector companies, I should add) have no problem whatsover circumventing 'procedures' when it suits them. I have been dealing with them every day for a decade.
 
sticking your fingers in your ears and singing 'la la la' because you don't want to hear something doesn't mean it's not being said.

Denial is the first stage on the path to enlightenment. :)
 
We're not sticking our fingers in our ears. We're saying that you're using one piece of anecdotal evidence to imply that there are no procedures or safeguards in place and that basically anyone in the Public Service can claim what they want with no questions asked. No doubt there are some lax areas and the people in them should be severely disciplined, but in my Government Department they query everything down to whether or not your hotel cost in Brussels included breakfast as well as a bed for the night (in order that they can knock the cost of a breakfast off your subsistence) before they will pay you any expenses incurred. If you have to get a taxi because you're travelling late at night our Finance Unit rings and queries this before you can recoup the cost (even if your Senior Manager has already cleared it). If we want to order coffee for a meeting you have to confirm that there will be people attending from outside the Department and not just internal staff. The list goes on. It would be very, very difficult to abuse procedures here because they are very strictly applied and it annoys me when I read stories implying that we're all sailing around in taxis, claiming for trips we never took etc etc.
 
liaconn, I'm not implying anything about the Civil/Public sector at all. You are the one claiming that I am. I am relating information which apparently does not happen in your office/dept, but it IS happening.
I'm glad to hear about the checks & balances where you work. The problem is that you and Complainer extend your experiences to the entire sector and thereby exclude the possibility of what I say to be true. That's denial and it's exactly like sticking your fingers in your ears. You say it can't be true, I say it not only CAN be true, it IS true.
 
Pique318 said:
You say it can't be true, I say it not only CAN be true, it IS true.
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That you believe it's true doesn't mean it actually is. That's not to say that it hasn't happened - just that you're relying on second-hand evidence that can't be substantiated. If it can, you (or your friend) should report it. Even if you're only relying on a very strong rumour, you should at least report it to your TD who would only love to follow up on it.

From my own experience, I can't think of or recall any circumstances where the hand delivery of letters (other than to places within walking distance) was either warranted or justified but if you honestly believe that this practice is commonplace you have a civic duty to follow up on it by all means at your disposable.
 
I never said it wasn't happening. I said using odd bits of anecdotal evidence to make major assumptions about the Public Service was unfair. You did say 'It seems the expenses culture of making a tidy profit is widespread'.

I'm not just getting at you. But so many people come on here with one story they've heard about the Public Service and go on as if this proves something. I hear stories of people in the private sector who steal stock from their bosses, invoice for work they haven't done, fiddle their tax etc but I just see these people as dishonest individuals not 'typical of all private sector workers'.
 
Complainer said:
I really don't believe that this happens. But if you believe it is happen, put a stop to it. Report it and get it sorted.



I deal with a lot of agencies, and councils, and depts, and I have never, ever come across any situations like this.

This would need sign off by line manager, head of dept, senior finance manager and 2 x cheque/EFT signatories. This kind of abuse is not happening on a wide scale, if at all.
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I must say complainer, I am surprised at your surprise. Expenses abuse is common place both in the public and private sector. Have you read the title of the thread and I take it you know why people were calling for his resignaiton? Are you familar with the FAS situation? Do you not believe any of this to be true?

Haven't time to respond to those who believe I should complain about my neighbour except to say there are far bigger fish to fry.
 
Having worked in both sectors, I have seen expenses abuse in both.

Several years ago, while working in the public sector, I remember going to a conference abroad where everything was included in the conference costs i.e. food, accommodation etc. and where the flights were booked and paid for in advance. I never submitted a claim as I didnt incurr any extra expenditure, but I remember a number of colleagues did.

But I would have to say that its more systemic in the private sector & you see it all the time. This is mainly because there are limits to claim amounts in the PS, so even if someone makes up a claim, there is only so much they can get back. Private sector companies tend to use straight pass thru - will pay whatever costs they believe were incurred without recourse to limits. Not the same in every company - many do have good controls, but many are lax.

Private sector companies also put a lot into corporate entertainment - when I first came across it after having working for a while in the public sector, I was surprised. At executive level, people routinely expect what I would consider to be their personal entertainment to be paid by the company - and companies have no problem doing this and are aware - employees are not breaking rules. Parties, dinners routinely paid for. Always stay in most expensive hotels. Clients wined and dined etc. etc.

Another reason is that company credit cards are common in the private sector and almost non-existant in the public sector (except for Ministers, CEOs etc.). I dont know how many times I've been out for purely social dinner with a group of people and when it comes to paying, someone produces a company credit card and makes a joke about their company picking up the tab. Even more systemic with self employed people or small business owners - "I'll write it off as a business expense" seems to be their mantra - I dont think they genuinely pay for anything themselves.
 
Yes expense abuse happens in both private & public and we Irish are good at it.

One last example Complainer will love.

Govt dept employee, friend of mine - his primary duty is to answer a 'hotline' for members of the public and deal with the query. Problem is that the phone very rarely rings (average twice a month). Not my friend's fault. So what does he do? Fair play to him, he set up his own business/company and ran it from his office. Spent 2 years running his own business from within his public sector job. Then he left and concentrated solely on the new business. Better than sitting there bored reading the paper which others would do.
 
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