Fisher Investments ??

charliehorse

Registered User
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Hi All
I have hit the 65 mark so I need to look at investing my pension pot as I want to retire now.
My cash funds are held in an SSAP that I used to buy, rent and sell a rental property in my pension.
Just wondered if anyone has heard or used Fisher Investments in Ireland?
They are claiming annual return average around 9.5% nett of fees for a managed ARF which sounds attractive.
Should I stay talking to them or deal with my local agent?
The latter has not been very proactive hence the looking elsewhere.
 
They are claiming annual return average around 9.5% nett of fees for a managed ARF which sounds attractive.
Are you sure that that's not simply a projection and, thus, meaningless? There's no legitimate investment that gives such a guaranteed net return. What exactly did they say in relation to this figure?
Should I stay talking to them or deal with my local agent?
The latter has not been very proactive hence the looking elsewhere.
You could start by posting your questions here to stay least get some opinion and food for thought.

What are your main issues/questions?
 
Anyone giving the impression that they can get you 9.5% net of fees should be avoided.

Where did you get this figure? I don't see it on their website.

Brendan
 
There's two distinct jobs required when setting up an ARF. (1) You need an authorised QFM to set up and maintain the ARF structure. (2) You need a fund manager to manage the investments, or you can go into a passive, index-tracking fund. I see on their website that Fisher is a discretionary fund manager and I assume that they are also a QFM. I also see from their website that they charge an initial fee and an ongoing percentage of the fund value, which is a common enough approach.

I'm amused to see this on their website... "Fisher Investments Ireland receives a transparent initial funding fee and an ongoing annual management fee based on a percentage of clients' assets under management. Fisher Investments Ireland pays a portion of the ongoing annual management fee to Fisher Investments for sub-management services it provides. The ongoing management fee aligns Fisher Investments Ireland’s interest with its clients’ interests. Unlike some investment firms, Fisher Investments Ireland does not operate on a commission basis."

So they don't operate on a commission basis but they charge a percentage of assets. That's also how commission works. :rolleyes:

Best thing to do is to ask them exactly how much they would charge you up-front and ongoing and post it back here and there's plenty on here who can comment.

As for their claim about 9.5% net of fees, past performance is not a guide to future returns and unless they're giving you a written guarantee of 9.5% per year in the future (which they won't) then claims around their past performance should not be seen as any indication of what they'll do in the future. Global investment conditions will decide that.
 
Hi Clubman, Brendan and Dave.
Thanks for your rapid replys.
Fisher did not guarantee a return, they showed me a graph going from 1995 to 2022.
It showed €1m invested in 1995 would be worth around €12m today allowing for inflation.
Fees look to be 2% annually made up of 1.25% for portfolio management, .25% for custodian bank, .2% "wrapper"
and .3% cost of offload(?) and a one off fee of .35% fee to build the portfolio.
Not sure if I can legally post their graph on here..
An accountant friend says that anything tracking the S&P would have done roughly as good over that time.
I fully understand that with investing anything can happen including losing a large lump of my pension pot.
I was always fully transparent in my business dealings so I expect the same from the financial world.
 
Hi Clubman, Brendan and Dave.
Thanks for your rapid replys.
Fisher did not guarantee a return, they showed me a graph going from 1995 to 2022.
It showed €1m invested in 1995 would be worth around €12m today allowing for inflation.
Fees look to be 2% annually made up of 1.25% for portfolio management, .25% for custodian bank, .2% "wrapper"
and .3% cost of offload(?) and a one off fee of .35% fee to build the portfolio.
Not sure if I can legally post their graph on here..
An accountant friend says that anything tracking the S&P would have done roughly as good over that time.
I fully understand that with investing anything can happen including losing a large lump of my pension pot.
I was always fully transparent in my business dealings so I expect the same from the financial world.

An annual charge of 2% is very expensive. You can get an ARF tracking a global index for less than 1% per year all-in. Think of what 1% per year is in Euro in the context of your fund size. Then ask Fisher to justify what they're going to do for you for the additional 1%. They can't promise you better performance to justify the additional cost.
 
It showed €1m invested in 1995 would be worth around €12m today allowing for inflation.
Invested in what?
In any case, the past performance is irrelevant and no guide to future returns.

Are you keeping the rental property and moving it to the ARF (if that's even possible?) or have you cashed in and want to invest the resulting accumulated cash in an ARF fund?
What type - e.g. what sort of asset mix?
As mentioned above there are more competitive charges, and possibly a wider range of investment funds available elsewhere.

I was also a bit concerned about this in the regulatory part of their website but maybe that's common across the industry?
https://www.fisherinvestments.com/en-ie/regulatory-information
The protections of the Irish regulatory regime, including the Investor Compensation Scheme (“ICS”), apply to the activities of Fisher Investments Ireland. The ICS pays 90% of net loss up to a maximum of €20,000 in certain circumstances when an investment firm authorised by the Central Bank goes out of business. However, such protections do not apply in relation to the services of Fisher Investments UK, Fisher Investments, or any custodian or bank located outside of Ireland. The assets of clients in Ireland will generally be held with a custodian in Ireland. In addition, to the extent your assets are invested in non-Irish funds or ETFs, these protections will not apply. Additional information in respect of the ICS can be found online at https://www.investorcompensation.ie/.
 
If your residual pension (after taking the tax-free lump sum) is entirely in cash, then reinvesting this into an ARF with an annual charge of 2% pa is very expensive, ie the investment has to earn 2% pa just to cover Fisher’s costs before you get any growth. So on the basis that you must drawdown a Minimum of 4% pa (5% pa after age 70) then the fund needs to earn 6% (7%) gross to maintain its value (though a singular focus on maintaining the value in retirement is arguably irrelevant).
In the current investment climate , targeting an investment return of 6% pa is ambitious and will require you adopting a certain type of investment strategy/ risk profile which may introduce most investment volatility.
But as Dave Vanian said, a 2% pa charge is very expensive. You could get a similar investment mix in a fund for circa 1% pa. If anyone is suggesting that they can deliver 9.5% net of 2% pa, my advice would be run (fast).
Its also important to remember that your investment return (whatever your investment risk profile) it will not work out at a fixed % each year. Over say, 20/25 years, there will be a mix of good years and bad years.
 
In my guide to approaching retirement i consider the challenges confronting retirees today, and also look at some practical strategies for dealing with their concerns.

My key insight from working with retirees for the last 30 years is that good retirement planning advice should make you feel slightly uncomfortable. Let’s illustrate this point with an example.

Imagine you go to your doctor, and he says that you have high cholesterol, and you are overweight, what would you expect your doctor to say? You would probably expect them to advise you to eat more healthily and to exercise more; they may also refer you to a dietician for practical advice on how to better manage what you eat. Now, this might not be what we might prefer, it requires effort and a change to our established behaviour, but it is certainly what we expect our doctor to advise us to do.
Our doctor isn’t there to tell us that; “it’s ok not to eat healthily and not exercise” and we don’t expect them to. They are highly qualified professionals, and we should expect them to make a comprehensive diagnosis of our health and to prescribe the most clinically effective solutions to deal with any problems they identify based on the evidence before them – it’s called evidence-based medicine.

Now contrast this with the typical experience that we might have when seeking financial advice for our retirement plans. Many clients will present themselves to an advisor and many, if not most, will stress the importance of keeping their capital safe. We know that this is true because 40% of all insured Approved Retirement Funds (ARFs) in Ireland are just invested in cash deposits.


Now, unlike meeting with a doctor, many advisors are happy to action the plan you say you want, rather than having a much more difficult conversation with you about what you should really do. This is not to say that the products on sale in Ireland today are totally unsuitable. In fact, all advisors are required to provide advice ensuring that the products they recommend are suitable. But this suitability standard is a lower duty of care than that provided by your doctor.

We are all familiar with the Hippocratic Oath sworn by doctors which ensures that your doctor will always seek to do what is in your best interest and to act as your fiduciary or trusted advisor.

However, Financial Advisors in Ireland are not required to act as your Fiduciary – to step into your shoes and to always do what is best for you.

Consequently, many of the products recommended in Ireland today are therefore focused on capital preservation simply because that is what retirees are mostly asking for.

Equally, many of the investment products on sale in Ireland are sold on the basis of commission payments to Financial Brokers and there is a potential conflict of interest between what is best for you and the desire of the broker to earn the highest commission.

It doesn’t have to be this way…

By contrast, we believe that retirement is one of the ‘big rocks’ in your life, like getting married or having children. These are life changing events that require an objective and professional assessment of what is in your best interests. The decisions are too important to be subject to the insidious conflicts of interest presented by the commission-based sales model.

We also believe that the focus for many people should not be on the products used to provide for our retirement such as deciding between an annuity or Approved Retirement Fund (ARF).

Rather, your focus should be on the things that matter to you, like how much income you need in retirement and the things that are within your control like how much risk you take.

The introduction of the Approved Retirement Fund (ARF) was a game changer for the retirement income market in Ireland, moving existing pension savings from a source of income in retirement to a financial planning vehicle. Prior to its implementation many people in Ireland converting their pension fund to an income stream through an annuity contract, often without exercising their Open Market Option to secure a competitive annuity rate.

Since the introduction of ARFs, the situation has reversed, with many, if not most people now choosing an ARF.

At the same time, we are starting to see a change in attitude to traditional retirement, with many people now transitioning into retirement (rather than it being marked by a distinct point in time) and looking at their overall assets, including residential property, savings, and pensions to fund their changing retirement income needs at different points during later life.

While the ARF has provided flexibility, it is our belief that for many people, their main aim is to have a pension that provides them with an income which lasts through retirement, ahead of the secondary desire for estate planning for the next generation.

Helping people plan at retirement is very different from helping people save for retirement. In the accumulation phase, people save from income to build capital, usually over a fixed term. With regular saving they can benefit from euro cost averaging. In the decumulation phase, capital is converted to income. The time horizon is unknown and the opposite of euro cost averaging, commonly called ‘euro cost ravaging’ or sequence of return risk, can be devastating.

 
We know that this is true because 40% of all insured Approved Retirement Funds (ARFs) in Ireland are just invested in cash deposits.

Hi Marc

That is frightening.

What does the "insured" bit mean? Managed by an insurance company?
 
Thanks Dave, Clubman and Conan for your inputs,
Dave, I see what you are saying.
There are no guarantees on future performance so really, they cannot justify large fees for something they only hope to achieve.
Yes I have sold the property and intend to invest the full amount of cash and rent into an ARF after taking the 25% tax free cash.
I have done a small bit of online share trading, spread betting and crypto dabbling over the years mainly for educational purposes.
I understand the risks, the fear and greed thing and the long term ups and downs of most things tradable.
You have to wonder that if Fisher is as good as they claim, why are the whole country not moving to them.
All I want is something with a reasonable chance of keeping my invested sum from reducing too much.
My present agent when pressed quoted around 1.25% which gives him a nice few grand every year.
I am going to meet him again to see what he can offer me for the 1.25% before I decide where to go.
Are there any particularly good performing funds out there? I did hear of a Merrion one that does exceptionally well.
 
Thanks Dave, Clubman and Conan for your inputs,
Dave, I see what you are saying.
There are no guarantees on future performance so really, they cannot justify large fees for something they only hope to achieve.
Yes I have sold the property and intend to invest the full amount of cash and rent into an ARF after taking the 25% tax free cash.
I have done a small bit of online share trading, spread betting and crypto dabbling over the years mainly for educational purposes.
I understand the risks, the fear and greed thing and the long term ups and downs of most things tradable.
You have to wonder that if Fisher is as good as they claim, why are the whole country not moving to them.
All I want is something with a reasonable chance of keeping my invested sum from reducing too much.
My present agent when pressed quoted around 1.25% which gives him a nice few grand every year.
I am going to meet him again to see what he can offer me for the 1.25% before I decide where to go.
Are there any particularly good performing funds out there? I did hear of a Merrion one that does exceptionally well.
To be honest, if there is a particular fund that was likely to outperform all others, then everyone would invest in it. Trying to predict what Fund will perform best over say the next 10 years is impossible. Ideally, you need to consider:
- what investment return are you targeting as a reasonable number
- what level of investment risk/ potential volatility are you comfortable taking
- Will that likely deliver the desired return
- what level of drawdown do you anticipate taking
Although returns over time will not be even (it won’t be 5% or 6% every year), you can work out (or an advisor can) the ARF profile over say 20 years assuming a certain average return pa and an assumed rate of drawdown. This will indicate how long your fund might last based on the chosen assumptions. Ideally, you don’t want the fund running out before you do.

Having decided on a particular investment strategy (and potentially a particular fund), you then need to consider what value you might derive from retaining an advisor on an ongoing basis (and paying for such). Assuming you are not going to regularly change the investment strategy, what will the adviser provide?
All that being said, perhaps you might consider the old traditional Annuity route. This gives you a guaranteed income for life. And with interest rates now picking up, Annuities are better value than they were say 12 months ago. Or you could go for a mix of ARF and Annuity. I am often asked which is best, ARF or Annuity? I can answer that question if you can tell me when you plan to die (haha). So I would take your state of health into account. If your health is good (and good genes), I wouldn’t rule out the Annuity. However if your health is poor (or poor genes) I would go the ARF route.
With all of that, you can appreciate why expert advice, at least in terms of structuring your initial decision, might be important (and perhaps just paying a fee to establish the desired structure).
 
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Hi Clubman, Brendan and Dave.
Thanks for your rapid replys.
Fisher did not guarantee a return, they showed me a graph going from 1995 to 2022.
It showed €1m invested in 1995 would be worth around €12m today allowing for inflation.

Fees look to be 2% annually made up of 1.25% for portfolio management, .25% for custodian bank, .2% "wrapper"
and .3% cost of offload(?) and a one off fee of .35% fee to build the portfolio.
Not sure if I can legally post their graph on here..
An accountant friend says that anything tracking the S&P would have done roughly as good over that time.
I fully understand that with investing anything can happen including losing a large lump of my pension pot.
I was always fully transparent in my business dealings so I expect the same from the financial world.
I am always skeptical when advisors show me the returns they generated over the last few years. As Buffett said, " a rising tide lifts all boats. The S&P 500 would have achieved that return too over that period, so what are they doing that is better than an index?

But as they are charging 2%, they have to achieve greater returns to match the returns of the S&P 500 and that means more investment risk for you to match that benchmark.



Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie
 
Thanks for all the inputs and ideas lads.
I have a meeting with my present agent next week to look at my options for an ARF.
I asked him to have a quick look at an Annuity so I can see the figures for that also.
I do not have any kids or dependents so it could be an option.
I understand that I will have to choose a suitable fund myself depending its contents and my risk level.
If anyone has info on good performing ones, feel free to post here ;-)
Regarding fees, what would be considered a fair annual fee for active and passive funds?
Another out of town agent quoted me .75% full fee per annum which sounds good compared to anything else I was offered.
Fees are a substantial lump out of my fund each year so it is important for me not to be paying over the odds.
 
I spoke with a couple of different well reputable financial planners / advisors / wealth managers in Dublin when trying to decide who to use recently. They were all coming in at close between 0.75% of the funds for the less active, more passive investments up to 1% for actively managed accounts. This is "supposedly" to cover everything such as portfolio management, custody of assets, fees for foreign held custodians, transaction fees etc. etc. When asked were there any other hidden fees I'd need to be concerned about I was told no.

I'm no expert, but 2% seems an awful lot to me, personally, I wouldn't deal with someone charging me that rate.
 
Hi Marc

That is frightening.

What does the "insured" bit mean? Managed by an insurance company?
It's not frightening at all Brendan, when you realize that the report dates back to 2015 and that the data was representative of what was going on on the market in 2011/2012 when deposit rates were high and you didn't really have a problem getting 4%+ pa.

Plus, only about 50% of the actuaries that run the industry responded to their own Societies requests for information so one large provider could have skewed the data if there were large tranches of business done in that particular year via protected/cash funds.

I don't know of another recent study so I'm assuming the 2015 one is the one being referred to. I would guess (from my own experience) that the investors that were in those funds in 2011/2012 are not now cash funds and that the most exposure to cash they'd have would be between 0% and (max) 10%.

Gerard

www.prsa.ie
 
As a matter of curiosity, did that survey suggest that 40% of all assets held in ARFs were in cash or that 40% of all ARFs were 100% in cash?

A 40% allocation to cash for somebody in their 80s doesn’t seem particularly conservative to me.
 
Thanks Always
This is the sort of info I will need.
Yes, 2% is a bit of a joke for the gamble that it is.
My lad quoted 1.25% when pushed .75% for him and .75% for the fund manager I think was the split.
So he is being generous to himself.
I will press him next week to divulge fully and give me his best offer before I decide to stay or look further.
 
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