Croke Park 2 - dead before it gets voted upon

Marion said:
Did you mean to write this?

I am a union member in the Public Service (you mentioned Public Sector, but sometimes they are mentioned as being the same) and I certainly would not consider myself a "union supporting waster".

"The Union" is made up of its members who will ultimately vote and decide union policy.

Marion
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I wrote that comment as a tongue-in-cheek response to Deiseblue’s comment.
Deiseblue’s comment expressed surprise that another poster worked in the Public Sector because of their progressive views. I was pointing out that there are many views held by people in the Public Sector, not just the stereotypical militant union member.
Unions are lead by people with a certain political view that subscribe to a particular ideological dogma.
Those that oppose that view will get short shrift. A close friend of mine worked in a Public Sector body and spoke out against proposed industrial action. He said that the isolation and ostracisation he experienced, let in a deliberate and open way by the union activists where he worked, forced him to change jobs.
 
Purple said:
I've a question for the Civil and Public Servants here;
Would you like to see the X% of wasters sacked and your wages not cut by X% or are you happy to take a pay cut in order to continue to carry these people?
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+1

I think this is the crux of modern trade unionism, despite what the bearded ones say, there is no spectre of 1913 lockouts any more, we have employment law coming out our ears, worker exploitation is a thing of the past.

Its a global labour market, Ireland is making itself uncompetitive and the trade union movement is a large part of the problem. Those who want or need to work hard are being held back, in the private sector its with a view to a cosy redundancy and hang the young people who wanted to work on, in the public sector its exactly as set out above with jobs for life the order of the day.

I think in answering the question above you need to decide which camp are you in, waster or not, & in conclusion the only ones who have an interest in a strong union movement are a) the fat cat union bosses and b) the wasters.
 
Deiseblue said:
I always thought Delboy worked in finance , I never for a moment thought that it could possibly be the Dept. of Finance for example - presumptuous of me I admit.

Perhap's Delboy is a member of a Union but is somewhat peeved at their current stance , perhaps he will elucidate ?
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work in the PS in finance, not the Dept of Finance. My career has been spent roughly 50-50 Private:public thus far so I've seen both sides

Never have been a member of a Union, never will be. I work hard, very hard and am passionate about my job and delivering results so feel I have nothing to fear from 'big bad mgmt'.
If I ever do get 'shafted' for some reason, I'll go find myself an employment legal bod and drag all to the courts/labour appeals mechanism....there's enough employment law out there to protect me from that kind of carry on, no need to be in a Union IMO
If I want a pay rise, I go for a promotion and let my achievements speak for me.
If I tire of my job/Dept/organisation, I get a new job elsewhere and move on....job for life attitude stinks and will never subscribe to it
 
Delboy said:
work in the PS in finance, not the Dept of Finance. My career has been spent roughly 50-50 Private:public transfer so I've seen both sides

Never have been a member of a Union, never will be. I work hard, very hard and am passionate about my job and delivering results so feel I have nothing to fear from 'big bad mgmt'.
If I ever do get 'shafted' for some reason, I'll go find myself an employment legal bod and drag all to the courts/labour appeals mechanism....there's enough employment law out there to protect me from that kind of carry on, no need to be in a Union IMO
If I want a pay rise, I go for a promotion and let me achievements speak for me.
If I tire of my job/Dept/organisation, I get a new job elsewhere and move on....job for life attitude stinks and will never subscribe to it
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Now all we need 30 or 40 thousand more people in the public sector with that attitude!
 
Betsy Og said:
+1

I think this is the crux of modern trade unionism, despite what the bearded ones say, there is no spectre of 1913 lockouts any more, we have employment law coming out our ears, worker exploitation is a thing of the past.

worker exploitation is alive and well is many parts of this country today!
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Purple said:
Now all we need 30 or 40 thousand more people in the public sector with that attitude!
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to be fair Purple, there is probably 30-40,000+ in the PS/CS with that attitude as that would be just 10% of the total. The whole system would collapse if there was'nt a big minority holding it together.
 
Delboy said:
to be fair Purple, there is probably 30-40,000+ in the PS/CS with that attitude as that would be just 10% of the total. The whole system would collapse if there was'nt a big minority holding it together.
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Fair point.
It's to their credit as well since they are doing it despite the system they work within, not because of it.
 
Delboy said:
work in the PS in finance, not the Dept of Finance. My career has been spent roughly 50-50 Private:public thus far so I've seen both sides

Never have been a member of a Union, never will be. I work hard, very hard and am passionate about my job and delivering results so feel I have nothing to fear from 'big bad mgmt'.
If I ever do get 'shafted' for some reason, I'll go find myself an employment legal bod and drag all to the courts/labour appeals mechanism....there's enough employment law out there to protect me from that kind of carry on, no need to be in a Union IMO
If I want a pay rise, I go for a promotion and let my achievements speak for me.
If I tire of my job/Dept/organisation, I get a new job elsewhere and move on....job for life attitude stinks and will never subscribe to it
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I thought pay rises were out of the question as there is a moratorium on promotions with the public service - unfortunately your achievements currently count for nought as it's pay cuts all the way.

Indeed there is employment law to protect you - thanks mainly to the efforts of the Irish Trade Union & the wider Trade Union movement.
 
Delboy said:
to be fair Purple, there is probably 30-40,000+ in the PS/CS with that attitude as that would be just 10% of the total. The whole system would collapse if there was'nt a big minority holding it together.
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Pure speculation unencumbered by any proof.

Unless of course you can provide a link ?
 
Betsy Og said:
+1

I think this is the crux of modern trade unionism, despite what the bearded ones say, there is no spectre of 1913 lockouts any more, we have employment law coming out our ears, worker exploitation is a thing of the past.

Its a global labour market, Ireland is making itself uncompetitive and the trade union movement is a large part of the problem. Those who want or need to work hard are being held back, in the private sector its with a view to a cosy redundancy and hang the young people who wanted to work on, in the public sector its exactly as set out above with jobs for life the order of the day.

I think in answering the question above you need to decide which camp are you in, waster or not, & in conclusion the only ones who have an interest in a strong union movement are a) the fat cat union bosses and b) the wasters.
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Im not a fat cat union boss and I am a member of a union. I believe it is essencial that there is a strong union movement.

So, I am a waster?

Thats a big leap.
 
Deiseblue said:
Pure speculation unencumbered by any proof.

Unless of course you can provide a link ?
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Why should he have to post a link to express an opinion - that's clearly what his post was.

Just as your posts on this thread are opinion too. This is the letting off steam forum remember.

In my opinion every workforce (public or private) is made up of a few different categories of worker -
  • The backbreakers who are fully committed, take the initiative and I presume these are the 10% Delboy refers to as carrying organisations.
  • The regular Joe/Jane Soap who will come in and do a good job for you, but don't live for the job - they may occasionally need encouragement to keep them performing.
  • The semi-chancers - people who will come into work but without any real pride in the job, and who're only doing it for a pay-check - these people will doss if left to their own devices but can/will produce properly as long as they are well managed/supervised, and may even move back into the category above, but over time they may also evolve into....
  • The complete chancers - people who have no interest in the job, zero. they just want to get paid, and their main aim is to do that with the absolute bare minimum of effort on their part. No sense of needing to earn their pay or justify their existence. A completely unjustified sense of entitlement.
In my opinion all 4 categories exist in both private & public sector, of course they do. But the proportion of the last category in the public sector is higher - the reason being, in my opinion, that due to poor management, excessive levels of unionisation, and institutional nature of the PS (i.e. the fact that people may work 40 years in the same organisation).

To answer Purple's simple question - of course I would prefer to see these people weeded out rather than suffer a paycut, but it's not my job to sort these things out, I have enough on my plate dealing with things that are already my problem without bringing my bearded friends down upon me...!
 
My main gripe with the public sector is the amount of sick leave taken?

Why is this so common in the public sector?
 
Deiseblue said:
I thought pay rises were out of the question as there is a moratorium on promotions with the public service - unfortunately your achievements currently count for nought as it's pay cuts all the way.

Indeed there is employment law to protect you - thanks mainly to the efforts of the Irish Trade Union & the wider Trade Union movement.
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As I said...If I want a payrise, I go for a promotion....vacancies are still being filled in the PS.

And as Celebtastic says above me...increments are automatic pay rises (though I'm top of the small band of scales in the grade I'm in for the past couple of years so they don't apply to me in relation to what I said in my posts). Had you forgotten about them!
 
cork said:
My main gripe with the public sector is the amount of sick leave taken?

Why is this so common in the public sector?
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surplus of staff, meaning work can be put back a few days
lack of interest in the job/career
attitude of 'this Organisation' is here to serve me', not the other way around
number of uncertified sick days is seen as a target to be hit or gotten very close to
newer staff observe the more established staff and the way they work the system, so they copy it...so the practice becomes engrained
weak management
 
Mandelbrot .
It would be extremely churlish not to say hypocritical of me to deny anybody their opinion.

As you may have gathered I believed that Delboy's assertion that 10% + (amended ) of the PS employees were carrying the rest on their back was wildly speculative however in fairness I did ask for some form of proof to clarify the situation - if none is forthcoming then my opinion remains unchanged.

Indeed I know that this is " Letting off Steam " forum - how could I forget , we've already had comments that all Union members are wasters & more recently Celebastic's statistics are once again to the fore -90% ( sorry I forgot the + ) of PS workers currently receive increments !

I'm off for a scatter of pints , I've had enough for today !
 
clarification: I never mentioned 10%.....I sad to Purple that it had to be a lot more than 10% which was what his figures equated to
 
Deiseblue said:
... more recently Celebastic's statistics are once again to the fore -90% ( sorry I forgot the + ) of PS workers currently receive increments !

...
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You are quite right - the figure is 99.9%:

...(In 2011) only 30 out of around 30,000 civil servants were denied increments for poor performance.

Under the current five-point PMDS rating system, staff can qualify for increments with a rating of just two, which effectively means they are underperforming.
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http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0726/330750-civil-servants-to-face-tougher-performance-ratings/

Disgraceful really.
 
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