Croke Park 2 - dead before it gets voted upon

Leper

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Some of the main features of the three-year agreement which would run to June 2016 include:

* Those currently on a working week of less than 35 hours will in future work a minimum of 37 hours - [No big deal here, but it wont happen]

* Those working between 35 and under 39 hours will have to put in at least 39 hours, with additional hours helping to cut public sector numbers[Rank and File Public Servants will spit on this and it has no chance]

* Reduced overtime rates, down to time and half for those on less than €35,000; time and a quarter for those earning more than €35,000[Much overtime has been cut already and all this will do is increase those working for time in lieu]

* Public servants currently on a 39 hour week will provide an unpaid hour’s overtime [Just when Public Servants dont want to concede an inch after all the concessions already made]

* So-called twilight payments - for work between 6pm and 8pm - will be abolished [No big deal, but important to those working long days, a sour taste though and just another nail in the public service workers coffin]

* A reduced Sunday rate of pay, down from double-time to time-and-three-quarters.[Another reduction on top of those already mentioned, no chance of being accepted]

* A three-year freeze on annual pay rises for those earning more than €65,000 [Some light here, I'd love to be earning over €65,000]

* Public sector workers with salaries between €35,000 and €65,000 will get two 15-monthly rather than annual pay rises over the period of the agreement.[Another beating by those who are beating public servants already]

* Those on less than €35,000 will have a three-month postponement on their first due pay rise, before returning to annual increments as normal[Just another joke]

* Those at the top of their pay scales will have to give up six days annual leave over the next three years or offer an equivalent cash deduction from their salary[over their dead bodies]

* High-earners will have their salaries and allowances cut 5.5 per cent for those between €65,000 and €80,000; with 8 per cent off earnings between €80,000 and €150,000; 9 per cent off pay between €150,000 and €185,000; and 10 per cent shaved off any earnings above €185,000[Irrelelevant to the rank and file proles]

* The cuts would mean someone on €100,000 salary and allowances would be down €6,000 to €94,000; someone on €160,000 would have their earnings cut to €149,100; while a top public servant on €200,000 would see their pay cut to €185,350 [The rank and file wont even read this]

* Supervision and substitution payments for teaching staff to be ended.[Dont bet on it]

* Other cutbacks include changes to flexitime, work sharing arrangements, redeployment provisions, new performance management arrangements and pay-grade restructuring [Discussions wont even reach this far]

I listened to RTE Radio News at 4.00pm today. The unions couldnt say what they negotiated; the government spokespeople couldn't help either. But press statements are being prepared.

If I were a union official I would be worried about the mass resignations to membership if any of the above proceeds beyond next week.

If I were a politician I would be worried that any loyalty from rank and file civil servants would remain.

The Gardaí have already cast contempt for the above. The Irish Nurses Organisation have thrown in their lot with the Gardaí also. I reckon the trades unions that remained within the talks are walking the plank as regards their members or should I say recent members?
 
A few points:

I dont know why they didnt have the required cuts a few years back when we were in dire straits and big decisions were needed - it seems a bit crueler (& less politically savvy)to be bringing them in now just as we seem to be turning the corner.

As regards hours, anyone I work with has a 37 hour week but routinely work 50 anyway (no overtime or time in lieu), so doubt much public tears shed over that one.

Re paycuts, thats the problem with unions, its all about the herd, the good suffer to compensate for the malingerers. So while there's bound to be some dead wood that could be cut, they are preserved forevermore so the younger people with the mortgages have to take a hit to pay.

At least your job is secure (no talk of compulsory redundancies) and you probably have a pension that the private sector workers can only dream of. So while its all bad news its not the bullet that many people have been presented with.
 
does any of the above apply to our politicians? Oh I forgot, they get money for everything, 2 mobile phones a year, free ipads, subsidised restuarant and bar, free car parking, attendance allowances, travel allowances, un vouched allowances, free phone calls, and on it goes, of I nearly forgot, a taxed allowance of 98k a year on top.

Now I left out a few bits but you get the picture.

Lets have a croke park2 and all the money we get deducted from the vulnerable will of course come into handy to continue paying all our allowances.

simples.
 
A few points:

I dont know why they didnt have the required cuts a few years back when we were in dire straits and big decisions were needed - it seems a bit crueler (& less politically savvy)to be bringing them in now just as we seem to be turning the corner.

As regards hours, anyone I work with has a 37 hour week but routinely work 50 anyway (no overtime or time in lieu), so doubt much public tears shed over that one.

Re paycuts, thats the problem with unions, its all about the herd, the good suffer to compensate for the malingerers. So while there's bound to be some dead wood that could be cut, they are preserved forevermore so the younger people with the mortgages have to take a hit to pay.

At least your job is secure (no talk of compulsory redundancies) and you probably have a pension that the private sector workers can only dream of. So while its all bad news its not the bullet that many people have been presented with.

+ 1 to all that.

Sad to see that increments haven't been frozen. Automatic pay rises based on time served, rather than ability, are a disgrace.

Is the "flexi" impacted at all?

Fully agree that these measures should have been implemented years ago.
 
How do twilight payments work?
Don't staff already get overtime if they work late?

I hope it's not one of these looney schemes like staff getting time off to cash cheques which we were talking about a few years ago

edit, found the answer to my own question
Special rates for ‘twilight‘ hours – where staff are paid at time-and-one-sixth for working between 6pm and 8pm
 
Sad to see that increments haven't been frozen.

* A three-year freeze on annual pay rises for those earning more than €65,000

* Public sector workers with salaries between €35,000 and €65,000 will get two three month freezes over the period of the agreement.

* Those on less than €35,000 will have one three-month freeze over the period of the agreement.


How do twilight payments work?
Don't staff already get overtime if they work late?

Twilight payments were given to some public sector staff who worked between 6pm and 8pm. Those contracted to '9-5' jobs would, in most instances, get overtime payments for working at those hours.
 
it's dead all right...Jack O'Connor tonight (he wore a red tie to confirm his credentials!) on Primetime played dumb to most of the questions put to him, especially the one about compulsory redundancies (for staff who won't redeploy within the specified mileage limits and who have not taken up VS when it was available).....kind of hung out to dry his colleague Patricia King on that one

I think we're looking at strikes ahead, if only for the fact that a lot of union leaders will lose their plum posts if they're seen to side with the deal
 
I think we're looking at strikes ahead, if only for the fact that a lot of union leaders will lose their plum posts if they're seen to side with the deal

People in the public service learnt long ago that strikes dont work and the only people affected are themselves; industrial action, yes but it will not be strikes.

As for the unions, if this is the best they could come up with . . . there is no point in being a member of a trades union. And the "finer" details are not available even yet. Forget about red ties and other red herrings this so called fair deal is dead in the water.

. . . and of course, the people who caused this recession are no nearer jail and the senate rolls on and despite promises is not within a smell of being disbanded (or for that matter being put to referendum for disbandment).
 
Re paycuts, thats the problem with unions, its all about the herd, the good suffer to compensate for the malingerers.

One of the reasons I jumped ship some years ago. The malingerers were winning every time. The problem with this deal is that the good workers are already saying "what's the point". Any unpaid or voluntary tasks taken on board by the good will fall by the wayside.
 
Leper I certainly have sympathy for a lot of the rank and file members of the public sector in the cuts being proposed here. Certainly imho anyone earning under €35K should not have to suffer further cuts. But I do take issue with some of the arguments you're making (below).

* Those at the top of their pay scales will have to give up six days annual leave over the next three years or offer an equivalent cash deduction from their salary[over their dead bodies]

* High-earners will have their salaries and allowances cut 5.5 per cent for those between €65,000 and €80,000; with 8 per cent off earnings between €80,000 and €150,000; 9 per cent off pay between €150,000 and €185,000; and 10 per cent shaved off any earnings above €185,000[Irrelelevant to the rank and file proles]

* The cuts would mean someone on €100,000 salary and allowances would be down €6,000 to €94,000; someone on €160,000 would have their earnings cut to €149,100; while a top public servant on €200,000 would see their pay cut to €185,350 [The rank and file wont even read this]
All the time we hear the ordinary punter on the street wants to see those earning the most taking the biggest hit and yet here you are saying the rank and file won't care about cuts to those earning the most? I disagree, I think the cuts to those earning over 100K and especially those earning over 150K have not been nearly harsh enough in these proposals.
Also, whilst it may not be palatable to the rank and file members the basic fact remains that the public sector pay as a whole remains much more than the country can afford. There is no getting away from this.
 
I think those earning less than 65k & working bewteen 9 & 5 will carry this deal.

But what was needed was public sector reform.


We still don't have this.
 
In the abscence of compulsory redundancies, this really is a missed opportunity.

There are so many things that we have public servants employed to do that could either be stopped completely, or outsourced to the private sector.

For example, I went to the Companies Registration Office in Dublin recently, and it looked like an episode out of Fr Ted with half of them drinking tea or staring out the window. Why arent these roles automated or outsourced to someone who could run it as a profit centre?

This sort of waste when the country is broke is a real scandal.
 
Hi celebtastic,

It seems to me you have (and I've already posted this) a serious problem with public servants. Whilst I am all for balancing the books so that my children do not have to pay for our largesse, you post is a contender for worst post of the year. If I was to guess, you probably left a relatively cushy PS job yourself and now regret your decision. By the way, I've done work for lots of organisations myself, mostly private but some public and I can say without doubt that dossing goes on everywhere.

For what it's worth, I had a completely different experience the last time my accountant set up a company for me - it was done pronto.

Firefly.
 
Hi celebtastic,

It seems to me you have (and I've already posted this) a serious problem with public servants. Whilst I am all for balancing the books so that my children do not have to pay for our largesse, you post is a contender for worst post of the year. If I was to guess, you probably left a relatively cushy PS job yourself and now regret your decision. By the way, I've done work for lots of organisations myself, mostly private but some public and I can say without doubt that dossing goes on everywhere.

For what it's worth, I had a completely different experience the last time my accountant set up a company for me - it was done pronto.

Firefly.

Please attack the ball, not the man.
 
For example, I went to the Companies Registration Office in Dublin recently, and it looked like an episode out of Fr Ted with half of them drinking tea or staring out the window. Why arent these roles automated or outsourced to someone who could run it as a profit centre?

This sort of waste when the country is broke is a real scandal.

You quote one episode where you saw people drinking tea as an example of "waste" and a "real scandal"? Arguments are seriously weakened when hysterical conclusions are drawn from such limited data!
 
For example, Why arent these roles automated or outsourced to someone who could run it as a profit centre?


What reason did you visit the CRO? Could you not have filed the document electronically? Was is an information visit? Where you looking for copies of documents or blank forms? All this available online and more or less fully automated. That is public service reform right there. Your one line comment and one off experience is an insult to all public servants.
 
+ 1 to all that.

Sad to see that increments haven't been frozen. Automatic pay rises based on time served, rather than ability, are a disgrace.

Is the "flexi" impacted at all?

Fully agree that these measures should have been implemented years ago.

Flexi is going from 1 1/2 days per 4 week period to 1 day per 4 week period. Plus given most staff will now have to work more hours per week will mean you have to work double the "extra" hours to get a day off in future.
 
Your one line comment and one off experience is an insult to all public servants.

Ah lads, would ye not be feeding the trolls ! They'll only come back for another mouthful ;).

I don't work in the publlic service, am not a member of a trade union, and would be very agitated if this were being proposed for my current employment.

But, I am also a tax payer and current budget deficit has to be reduced. What was the counter-proposal, from employee representatives, for reducing the cost of the public service by €1bn. ?
 
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