Willie O'Dea Defence??????

Re: what good?

I guess the absence of specific details on any significant policy changes or initiatives driven by Mary herself reinforces my original point.

Setting a policy does not prove ability to implement change, particularly in such a tricky environment as the Irish health system.
 
Re: what good?

I don't know if she will do a good job or not rainy, she hadn't shown much time for the unions before and as we all know nothing happens in the public sector without the unions being on side. The last minister found that out the hard way. In his innocence he thought that the unions would accept change if it was in the interest of the public! He should have known better.
Mary Harney will not be able to push through the necessary changes as long as B-B-B-Berty keeps rolling over for any and every pressure group in the health service that faces up to him, be they nurses, clerical workers or, most of all, consultants.
 
What good?

With 13 FF'ers, the PD's needed Mary to balance the front bench!
:rollin
 
Re: What good?

With 13 FF'ers, the PD's needed Mary to balance the front bench!
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That's a nasty and childish comment......
I wish I'd thought of it though, 'cause it's very funny!
 
Re: What good?

Forget her party - what has SHE done to show that she will make a good Minister of Health?
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First of all she led her party, so she does get to claim credit/blame for the things it does. But that aside...

Let's see her bump up the already high prices by privatising everything that moves
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Isn't it Labour who wan't to make health insurance compulsory? So we can get the same rip-offs as motor insurance.

She was fortunate to be running Enterprise through the Celtic Tiger boom - right place, right time - rather than any innate personal ability.
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Ah yes. When Labour do it it's ability, skill, perserverence, principles, honesty, integrity. When anyone else succeeds it's luck.

She has no track record for taking on vested interests, like the consultants.

I think I recall her getting rid of the smog in Dublin.
I haven't lived in Dublin city for a very long time but I do remember not being able to get to sleep in 1989 because I could taste the smog filling up the room.
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But I really haven't seen Harney do anything to impress. Have you.
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I saw her quit FF and start a new party. That impressed me.
She would possibly have been the first female Taoiseach if she had stayed. She certainly risked never being a minsister again by leaving.

She asked for the Health portfolio. That impressed me.
Having asked for it she has a lot more on the line than if she was simply landed with it. She's staking her own political career on a move for the second time in her career.

Setting a policy does not prove ability to implement change, particularly in such a tricky environment as the Irish health system.
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Should we go with a health minister from the opposition benches. When they've had their hands on health they've neither set policy or implemented change. Unless Tax and spend with little improvement can be considered change.
At least the current government (who I'm no fan of) have increased spending while reducing tax.

The problem with democracy is that the longer Labour stay in opposition the better they think they would be in government. And now they've been out for so long, they've constructed an almost god like self image.

Honestly if they don't get into government soon and mess something up they're going to be intolerable to listen to.

Let's see how Mary does. There are very few people in the Dail who I would prefer to see in the position. A politician who asks for a portfolio like health is to be admired.

-Rd
 
Re: What good?

Actually, I had forgotton her achievements on the smog - probably all the more impressive given that she was the junior minister working under the wing of Pee Flynn at the time. Credit where credit is due - but it is a long way from turning round the Irish health service. It's a bit worrying though that we have to go so far back to history to find this achievement.

And a special little message for those who can't resist on taking a jibe at Labour every time I open my mouth - I never said (& I'm not saying now) that a Labour minister would be more effective than Harney - that's a topic for another day/thread.
 
Re: What good?

It's a bit worrying though that we have to go so far back to history to find this achievement.
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Some would argue that holding the portfolio she did during a period of the lowest unemployment in the history of the state was also an achievement. But that was just luck.

Are there any other TD's who've actually changed the country in the concrete way's that she has? Who have actually demonstrated an ability to dig in their heels when needed.

Most TD's spend their entiry time in the Dail with no such achievement at all.

As for taking shots at Labour, it's only fair to do so since it was the supposed "Right Wing" leanings of the PD's and Mary that you were fearful of. I'm just pointing out that I'd be far more scared if Labour were running the Health service.

If you put political ideology aside it's clear that there are
few if any TD's better suited to the job.

For the record the only reason I'm not a member of the PD's is that my dislike of McDowell outweighs my like of Mary.

-Rd
 
Re: What good?

Some politicians have proved capable of implementing change effectively - Mickey Martin & the smoking ban being the most recent example, but you could look back to Niamh Breathnach on 3rd level fees, Donough O'Malley on 2nd level fees, even the bould CJH on free travel. Mary has not shown any such capability in recent years - she's been coasting in her old Dept for some time now.

But her ideology scares the pants off me too.
 
Re: What good?

I had thought of Mickey Martin, but I kind of ruled him out as a potential replacement for himself.

CJH did a lot more than the Free Travel. He also did the IFSC, the Tax breaks for artists etc. And for better or worse he was at the helm for the crucial 1987 to 1989 period.
History might have an interesting time recording his contribution when future generations don't have the emotional closeness to his corruption.

Lemass would be my own favourite "get things done" kind of guy. Dessie O Malley probably deserves honerable mention for forcing the Beef Tribunal and also for tackling the Irish Sweepstakes.

The fact that we can name just a handfull of real achievers in the history of the state shows the small group that Mary Harney finds herself in.

In truth very few ministers find themselves in a position to actually effect a significant change more than once or twice in their career. And even if the chance arises you are often forced to back down.

If nothing else we now have a minister for health who can bring down the government.

-Richard
 
Re: Complacency

Hi Purple,

________________________________________________
She and her party have lowered taxes and kept them low ......
that's good enough for me.
________________________________________________

Hmmmmm.... have to disagree with you there, me old son!

While income tax rates have dropped, indirect taxes have increased... and by the way, 52% of ALL people in the tax net pay at the higher rate.... :eek

Low taxation party me a%^e!!!

Mind you, I'm sure they will rediscover the slogan again in time for the next election -

To be fair, (Something I'm loath to do after experiences with NTL - see another part of askabout money), she attempted to deal with the insurance industry and I would accept that some measure of success has been achieved.

I don't think she'll do it in health though - she doesn't have enough time between now and the next election to cap the power of medical consultants...

Regards,

OpusnBill
 
Re: Complacency

While income tax rates have dropped, indirect taxes have increased... and by the way, 52% of ALL people in the tax net pay at the higher rate
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Increases in indirect taxes, which affect poor people more than the well off, are a direct result of paying for benchmarking, at least that's what the Dublin city manager said on the radio. The PD's were against this but Bertie is a pinko at heart and a populist to his core so he pushed it through. In fairness he only did so because SIPTU told him to and they do run the country after all. The increases in indirect taxes can and should be laid at the door of the trade union movement.
52% of the population on the top rate is bad alright, however I went on to the top rate as a second year apprentice. Now days second year apprentices don't pay any tax on most of their income and the lower rate on the balance.
52% on the higher rate has more to do with economic success than it does to do with taxing the poor.

she doesn't have enough time between now and the next election to cap the power of medical consultants
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I have to agree with you there. The consultants and the nurses have to be broken as power blocks if things are to get better. 80% of all the increases in spending in health over the last 4 years have gone on wages, most of that to nurses.
They may well deserve the increase but they shouldn't be bleating on about being the patients advocate while at the same time saying "feck them and what they need, give us the money instead".

She does indeed have her work cut out.
 
Re: Complacency

Hi Purple,

"Increases in indirect taxes, which affect poor people more than the well off, are a direct result of paying for benchmarking, at least that's what the Dublin city manager said on the radio."

Well, that's a refreshing point of view for him to take - I didn't know the Dublin City Manager took an interest in such things, maybe he'd be better off looking after Dublin, but maybe I'm being a bit uncharitable here! ;-)

"The PD's were against this but Bertie is a pinko at heart and a populist to his core so he pushed it through."

They could have left Government, if they really believed in their principles, couldn't they? Funny how she decided to re-introduce low taxation in the run up to the next general election (see her in the Sunday Times about 3/4 weeks back)... anyone having a spinning sensation?

"In fairness he only did so because SIPTU told him to and they do run the country after all. The increases in indirect taxes can and should be laid at the door of the trade union movement."

Yeh, grand so... No need to have elections in 2006/07 then! Come on, purple, you don't really believe this do you?

"52% on the higher rate has more to do with economic success than it does to do with taxing the poor."

Acutally , I don't think so. It's more to do with not bothering to increase tax bands by a rate equivalent to inflation (or slightly more perhaps). This affects the poor more so that the rich as tend to benefit from a reduction in top rates of tax.

Ultimatley, its' about poor economic management and trying to grab back monies that were used to buy the last general election. (yeh, yeh call me a pinko, I'll get over it) But the best part is, the PD's are the party of low taxation - never mind reality, feel the quality!!

Incidentally, I think she's made a big mistake in going to Health - all the problems will be blamed on the PD's now -nanny state and all that....!

Regards,

OpusnBill
 
.

I know you can't go off personal appearances but take the new health minister. I heard Micheal Martin talking about his eating salads and exercising over the summer. Will that be coming from the latest incumbent??
As for defence - the eyes of the world will look at the Irish (Dad's) Army.... and then look at and listen to the Defence Minister! Oh dear.

Regardless of the substance of these two individuals , both appointments will only perpetuate paddywhackery stereotyping. What next? Sadam as the new icon of peace?
 
Re: .

I think the biggest disgrace is that Brian Lennahan was not made a full minister. He strikes me as one of the most able members of FF and seems to be able to give credit where it's due to members of other parties which I take as a sign that he's less interested in the sort of knock them for the sake of it attitude that is common in Irish politics (personified for me by Pat Rabbit). I can only assume that Bertie knows he's leadership material and wants to do to him what CJH did to wee Seamus for so many years.
Come on, purple, you don't really believe this do you?
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I believe that the unions have a disproportionate and negative influence on this government. Everyone gets to vote for the government, who are SIPTU or IBEC to dictate government policy? It’s fundamentally undemocratic that the mandate to run this country be partially dictated by unelected bodies, be they left or right wing. Anyone has the right to ask, or to attempt to influence in an open way, what the government does but the decision should be the governments. All policy now has to be framed within the last national wage/social agreement where there government was one of only God knows how many pillars.
It's more to do with not bothering to increase tax bands by a rate equivalent to inflation (or slightly more perhaps). This affects the poor more so that the rich as tend to benefit from a reduction in top rates of tax.
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Yea, that’s a good point but do remember all the posturing from the unions that they would not stand for increases in the rates of tax after benchmarking so along with indirect taxes they increased real taxes by not indexing the bands. I think that this government had the chance to do a lot more than they have done but spent too much time looking over their shoulders and not enough looking forward. Why did so many ministers have to attempt to force policy through by going it alone (often disastrously)? The only consolation for me is that they are a lot better than the soulless hotchpotch that Enda and Pat can offer, but that’s not saying a lot.
 
Undemocratic

It’s fundamentally undemocratic that the mandate to run this country be partially dictated by unelected bodies, be they left or right wing.
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If SIPTU really ran the country, wouldn't Labour be in government? I think you're giving the Unions too much credit. Apart from making public transport, health and education very difficult to run I don't know of any other impact they have.

-Rd
 
Re: Undemocratic

Interesting to note that Minnie Brennan's move to Social Welfare is seen by those in FF as a major demotion - Says a lot about where looking after those most disadvantaged in society comes in the priorities of those in power.
 
Re: Undemocratic

that Minnie Brennan's move to Social Welfare is seen by those in FF as a major demotion
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Can you back that up or is it just conjecture? Conjecture is a speciality of mine and I can see it a mile off. And please don't quote the conjecture of some anti FF pinko journalist as a source (I can dismiss any journalist who said that as a pinko!).
C'mon rainy, you are loosing it, a while ago you referred to the British Labour party as left wing!!! What next, FG, the Greenies and Labour compatible in government?
I'm afraid to say we have the best of a bad lot...
 
Re: Undemocratic

I can dismiss any journalist who said that as a pinko!).
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Indeed you can, but there isn't really much point in continuing to debate the issue, if you mind is closed already. But if you really are interested, check out Monday's cover story from the Indo.

When it became obvious that he was not going to leave the Cabinet without a fight, it was made clear to Mr Brennan that Social and Family Affairs was the only Department on offer and that he could take it or leave it.
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Re: Undemocratic

I'm slightly dubious about the very detailed accounts of meetings that occur between two people, in a room with no witnesses.

I've never been one to believe "everything" I read. But even by my sceptical standards some coverage of recent events has left a lot to be desired. Even coverage by RTE who I'd have usually assumed had a little more cred.

That said, I agree that Social Welfare is seen as a demotion from Transport, but not just by people in FF. The media think it's a demotion, the other parties seem to think it's a demotion.

All the Merc's are the same size, the Salary is the same, and the Cabinet seats are equally comfortable.

I don't know what the fuss is about.

-Rd
 
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