Will the Dublin property market crash ??

Just on some of Duplex's points:

2) There is a huge difference between the rental market and the homeowners market.

3) Wage growth has been nowhere near house price growth in Ireland for a long time now. It hasn't stopped the prices from rising though.

4) Other countries are other countries. Not Ireland. Apples and bananas.

If house prices do increase by 10% this year will you post here next year and admit you might have been wrong? Or just issue the same warning year after year until some day you're right?
 
Gabriel

1. There is a difference between ownership and renting. The cost of renting in Ireland is falling while the cost of ownership is rising. This fact casts some light on the relative financial value/worth of shelter in Ireland and reflects the physic value of ownership at present.


2. The gap between wage growth and house price growth has existed for some time, again a fact. Momentum investing and asset bubbles tend to display this type of divergence from fundamentals.


3. You suggest that the UK, US and Australian markets are apples, while our markets is bananas, I would tend to agree with this statement.


Will I agree to come back to this board in a years time if house prices do rise by 10% and state that I was wrong?, yes, but only if the banks, auctioneers and editors of all the property supplements agree to post on here if they are proved wrong.

Btw thank you Marie
 
Duplex, you pre-suppose that bankers, auctioneers and editors of all the property supplements actually read AAM!

I'll look forward to your post on the 1st of Jan 2006 ;)
 
I have little doubt, sadly, that there will be a property crash in Ireland. While trying to 'predict the market' is indeed generally a mugs game I'm prepared to put a time-frame of 18-24 months on it.

Theres a large variety of reason for this but amongst them are:

I've seen the figure of Ireland having one of the lowest 'dwellings per 1000' in Europe of 337 being bandied about. Being a cynical one I checked on the website of the UN Economic Commission for Europe and the last year they had figures for was 2002 at 384 per 1000. Add on 03/04 and 05s predicted 80000 new houses and you're suddenly at 440 odd, a massive increase in a few years.

ECB president Jean-Claude Trichet has stated that although they have held the ecb rate at 2% again recently they would prefer to move it slowly over the next two years to a more 'normal' rate for Europe of 3-4%. A 250k mortgage today at 3.3% is roughly costing you 1094 a month, at 5.3% that will go up to 1388 a month almost 300 euro a month extra, this is by no means an unreasonable expectation.

'Affordability' is again often throw about as being much the same as it was 20 years ago while interest rates were at an all time high. What you don't read is that 'affordability' is often based on some very unstable factors. I find it astonishing how easy it is to get mortgages for higher and higher amounts these days. Don't make enough? No prob can Daddy go guarantor? Hey don't forget the 'magic' extra 7k a year you earn from rent-a-room tax free, a little poke here a little pull there and all is well. No deposit? Not a prob either the wonderfull Credit Union is there to help. It goes on and on, I know of no-one in recent years that has managed to buy without some questionable 'help' in some way or other (and I include in that gifts from parents etc.)

As stated before the average wage to house price ratio in Ireland is at ridiculous levels and is imho unsustainable in the long run. Are we condeming these youngsters to NEEDING two full time incomes to raise a family and afford the mortgage repayments? Have any of these more recent buyers stopped to consider the sheer expense of having a family in the future.

Of course not since never in the history of the State has credit been easier to come buy. Unfortunately most of the young people buying their own homes have never known the 'bad times' and assume it can never happen, try paying that 'affordable' mortgage on 1 income instead of 2.

It's been predicted to happen many times in the past but the vested interest circle of builders,banks,estate agents and newspapers have ensured that no-one is really prepared to cry wolf until it is too late.

Forget the figures though, most recent home buyers I know don't ask questions like; location, proximity to services or schools, living space, gardens, lifestyle etc.. etc.. the only question is 'Can i afford it?' if not then keep going further out until you can, after all you better do it now while you still can afford it and sure you'll have made 25k on it by next year.

The day ftbs started to confuse the word 'home' with the word 'investment' was a bad day for Ireland. And thats before I even get started on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th house buyers instead of pensions!
 
What Devilsadvocate says sounds like sense to me. A house near me was recently sale agreed(stolen) for 4% less than similar houses were sold a year ago despite this house being in a better location in the estate, having a bigger garden, being detached and the buyer was a FTB looking at 0% stamp duty as it was post budget.
 
I'm seeing evidence of 'jitters' already. A friend has had his Donabate property on the market at 285k for the last 9 months while 3 other houses on his street (almost identical bar some minor details) sold for 275, 270 and 266 respectively.

He is unfortunately in the position of having put a deposit on a new-build that will be ready shortly and is having major difficulty funding the shortfall if he doesn't get the full 285k. He nearly jumped for joy at the new stamp-duty for ftbs of second hand houses as it may bail him out just in time.
 
I'm also seeing dropping asking prices in Meath, I would guess about 5% of peak prices in the summer of last year. The ECB has issued another warning, today regarding unsustainable property bubbles in Ireland and Spain. Second warning in the last week.
 
I know this point is made over and over again but I still think that a good property in a central location will do well in the medium to long term, if not in the short term. I've also noticed some falls in prices but have seen extremely high increases recently in some predominately FTB central areas around me such as parts of Whitehall, Cabra and Stoneybatter. Meanwhile, I've noticed stagnation where my parents live in Blanchardstown.
 
I still think that a good property in a central location will do well in the medium to long term, if not in the short term.

I'm curious to know what objective data do you base this opinion on?
 
Go to the department of the Environments web site, it's linked off of the www.irlgov.ie. Under housing stastics their is a downloadable spreadsheet that details house price movements based on loan approvals. The third quarter of last year makes interesting reading. The full years figures should be out in a couple of weeks.
 
what a terrible website! finally found this. it seems to say that prices in dublin have fallen in a general sense for the third quarter of 2004 but such general statistics often conceal the reality that prices have most definitely risen for the vast majority of areas in Dublin for this period. I don't know anyone who would disagree that prices have not risen in Dublin 3,7 or 9 for the large part over this time. I mention these areas because they are the ones that I've been watching specifically.

In relation to Clubman's point, it's merely an opinion and not based on any objective data. However, anyone I know who has bought a FTB property recently doesn't really have a huge problem paying their mortgage. Raising the deposit was the big obstacle to overcome. I can't see this changing unless the ECB rises by over 2% which I believe is unlikely. Unemployment continues to be low and prospects for the city are still extremely good.


DEH&LG Housing Statistics Website Link inserted by ajapale
 
"I don't know anyone who would disagree that prices have not risen in Dublin 3,7 or 9 for the large part over this time."

Here's one that would disagree and I know of lots of other people living in the general area.

Roy
 
Would you say that this is true across the board or just for houses, which are not usually bought by FTBs. Anything currently for sale around 300,000 in these areas seems to have had very strong capital appreciation over the last few years and appears to continue to do so.

John
 
> Would you say that this is true across the board or just for houses, which are not usually bought by FTBs

That's a rather strange assertion. Any evidence to back this up?
 
Hi Gabriel,

Just from personal experience of being a FTB and buying my own place in Dublin 7, and from friends of mine (also FTBs) who have bought in East Wall and in Whitehall, I've noticed over the past two years how prices at the lower end of the market have risen substantially in these areas. For example in East Cabra, a two bedroom ex corporation house in good condition will now sell for around 330,000. (One recently sale agreed on Annaly Drive for around this) When I was looking just over two years ago, it would have cost around 230,000. Similarly, an ex corp house in e.g. the Larkhill area of Whitehall in poor condition cost around 210,000 about two years ago and is now selling for around 290,000 and currently, there is one in good condition for sale on Larkhill road for 350,000. These increases have been continuous as I have been keeping an eye on both areas over the past while.

John
 
Re: Crash

Hi Rose, the URL doesn't work - could you post a link please?

Thanks
Roy
 
Hi JohnFitz,

I wasn't questioning your assertion that prices have risen steadily in certain areas. I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that first time buyers don't buy houses?

"...just for houses, which are not usually bought by FTBs"

Or have I mistaken what you were saying?
 
Hi Gabriel,

Sorry, I think you misunderstood. I was referring to the type of houses that FTBs typically don't buy; i.e those well over 300,000.

John
 
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