Will filing bankrupcy in UK clear my Irish debt?

JoeBallantin said:
How does the Official Receiver gain access to bank accounts in different countries? What is the process?, does he write to irish banks, saying that the individuals assets are now under his control? (What if an Irish Bank refuses to acknowledge UK court orders?..)

Can the bank sell the house for a pittance?, or do they have to realise a fair price?

Who values the car? (must be less than 2,000)

Can tradesmen keep their tools? (i.e plasterers etc)? Any limits on this?

Who decides if a pension if massively overfunded? (And why should a pension be keep away from creditors)

You can no longer hold your seat in the Dail once declared bankrupt.
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Hi Joe
When you present your petition for bankruptcy you also have to fill in and file a statement of affairs. This is a 28 page document in which you set out your contact details and a list of your assets, liabilities (both secured and unsecured), your income and your expenditure and also details such as your savings and bank accounts.
It is the information which is put on these forms which helps the Official Receiver decide who to write to.
So for instance you put the names and addresses of your creditors down so the OR can tell them he is now dealing with your affairs and that thye are to write to him from hence forth.
All creditors have to accept his authority as it flows from EU law which has been ratified by convention in each country.

As for selling thr property it is in the banks interest to get the best price. Remember the property has no equity and therefore the OR is not expecting a return. Any shortfall is written off in the bankruptcy and so the only entity with an interest in what the property goes for is the bank. If it sells short it suffers the loss.

The car is vlaued using a Glasses guide or similar. If there seems to be more value than allowable the OR can ask you to make him an offer. If there is a lot of equity he will ask for it to be delivered up so he can sell it at auction and he will give you £2000 in return for a new vehicle.

A tradesman can keep their tools. Also anything in the house used for normal living including plasma tv's are left. There is a section on the form to state if there are any antiques of value. Nobody has ever admitted to me that they have them, and the OR has never investigated this. He very much takes the answers given at face value. This is because the form has a statement of truth attached which he relys on.

The rules about pensions changed about 10 years ago. The problem was that people were being discharged from bankruptcy and 20 years later on retirement way after discharge, they were getting letters claiming their pensions. It was seen as wholly unfair and hence the law was changed to make the whole issue of bankruptcy finalised in just three years. (and this only where there is an income payments agreement, or a property with equity)

No you can't be an MP. In all honesty not something I expect to be advising on.

Hope this helps
 
No, but it should have been an issue for Beverly Cooper Flynn, who lost her court case against the RTE, and costs or whatever, about 2 million or thereabouts was awarded against her.

She was bankrupted (or claimed immense difficulty in paying) , and should have lost her seat,.. but RTE kindly waived the costs. What was that about?.. why take a case if when you win you kindly walk away. That seems like corruption to me.
 
I just came upon this post and it is very helpful.
Just a question regarding the rules for bankruptcy in UK.... do you have to be actually residing in the UK before the judgement for unsecured debt occurs or can you move to UK after a bank secures a judgement against you? And what if the bank gets an IRISH court order declaring you bankrupt first (before you get a chance to move to UK)
Just another note.. is it just the UK that has the best bankruptcy laws? What about if one were to emigrate to another EU country such as Spain or even outside EU such as Canada?
 
And what if the bank gets an IRISH court order declaring you bankrupt first (before you get a chance to move to UK)
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It would never happen. Banks here do not do this.
Just another note.. is it just the UK that has the best bankruptcy laws? What about if one were to emigrate to another EU country such as Spain or even outside EU such as Canada?
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You would need to speak to a bankruptcy expert.
 
time2 said:
I just came upon this post and it is very helpful.
Just a question regarding the rules for bankruptcy in UK.... do you have to be actually residing in the UK before the judgement for unsecured debt occurs or can you move to UK after a bank secures a judgement against you? And what if the bank gets an IRISH court order declaring you bankrupt first (before you get a chance to move to UK)
Just another note.. is it just the UK that has the best bankruptcy laws? What about if one were to emigrate to another EU country such as Spain or even outside EU such as Canada?
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Hello it doesn't matter whether your debt is unsecured, or secured but not yet repossesed, or that you have a judgement against you. All of these debts can and will be written off. The Judgement and unsecured is self explanitory. The secured will be written off as your interest in the property will vest in the Official Receiver.
It seems that it is widely acknowledged that England and Wales are the most favorable places to go bankrupt in the EU
 
Steve Thatcher said:
Hello it doesn't matter whether your debt is unsecured, or secured but not yet repossesed, or that you have a judgement against you. All of these debts can and will be written off. The Judgement and unsecured is self explanitory. The secured will be written off as your interest in the property will vest in the Official Receiver.
It seems that it is widely acknowledged that England and Wales are the most favorable places to go bankrupt in the EU
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Thanks Steve,
Just another question please,
If one decides to file for bankruptcy in UK do the courts INCLUDE ALL your assets and liabilities in the mix whether you like it or not? Can one decide to continue to service certain debts such as a manageable mortgage (thereby holding onto this asset) but just include the debt from another investment mortgage (the one that is unmanageable) in the bankruptcy application?
 
Hi Time,
Can you clarify if you need your mortgages to be converted to
Unsecured debt ,by either a repossesion or voluntary means ,in order to proced to declaring bankruptcy in the UK ,from an earlier post I thought you stated that it was necessary to wait until this was the case before proceding. Thanks .
 
It now seems you don't have to wait. It is all taken care of by the OR.
 
Time said:
It now seems you don't have to wait. It is all taken care of by the OR.
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Hi Time, if you have sole property, that as I said vests in the OR and he can decide what he does with it. If that is a matrimonial home, then it would be possible for the spouse to by it off the official receiver for £1 plus costs. She would need to get a mortgage in her own name, tio replace the existing mortgage. Not really viable.
Better here to let the house go back to bank. Wife approach bank and say we want to stay in house. House is valued at say €200,000 , mortgage is €360,000. There will be a massive loss on sale at auction if it sells, even below the €200,000, so wife will take on mortgage for that amount. That way family gets to stay in home. Husband wipes off mortgage debt in bankruptcy, Official receiver has dealt with the case and the bank yes has suffered a loss, but at least capped its losses by not having to put it in auction.

If the house is jointly owned, it is always possible for wife to buy out Husbands share if he is going bankrupt for other debts. so the family home can be saved. If it is in neg equity the Or will probably do that transfer straight way. He can tho take up to three years to see if the market comes back and he has equity in the property. If the property is transferred back, the wife would then have sole responsibility for the mortgage and the shortfall.

Hope this helps

Steve
 
If you declare bankruptcy in UK with your irish property, then what happens if you happen to have a property in the UK too that isn't in negative equity?
 
peelaaa said:
If you declare bankruptcy in UK with your irish property, then what happens if you happen to have a property in the UK too that isn't in negative equity?
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In that situation if you hold it in your sole name, it vests in the OR. You would need to take steps to buy it off of him for the equity value if you wanted to keep it. If it is jointly owned only half of the equity would be available to the OR and an agreement can be struck to have this transferred to the spouse for a sum close to but probably slightly less than half the equity value.
 
Time said:
It now seems you don't have to wait. It is all taken care of by the OR.
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This is very confusing, your earlier advice was that the Irish mortgage had to be changed to an unsecured debt before you could go ahead with UK bankruptcy. Are you now saying that in fact you just go to the UK following Steve's advice above and everything will be taken care of by the official receiver?
 
Most houses in Ireland are in serious negative equity so if you declare Bankruptcy in the UK the Official Receiver will take no further interest in this property if he sees that no equity is likely to come back into the property within 3 years. Do a search on the net for articles on Irish citizens seeking bankruptcy in the UK and you will see quite a few relevant articles to help you
 
interesting topic and great info here,

If the couple are seperated with a house in 250K negative equity in joint names, can one partner head of to the UK and declare bankrupt as you describe? what happens the one that stays in Ireland (they don't work either)? will things be more complicated because it's a joint mortgage?

many thanks
 
If one party to a mortgage declares bankruptcy in the UK the remaining party is fully responsible for the mortgage because it is joint and several. If the remaining party can manage the mortgage on their own they can buy the bankrupts half of the house for £1 plus fees of £200. However they then must pay the full mortgage.
 
I would like to point out that if you declare Bankruptcy in the UK all your debts and judgements are wiped out and the bank cannot, under any circumstances, come after the shortfall after you are discharged in 12 months. This is European law and not just Irish or UK law.
It would be very interesting to see how a bank would react here to the threat of you declaring bankruptcy if they dont do a write down on your mortgage. You mudt first do everything to establish the UK as your centre of main interest (just google Irish Bankruptcy) and then go into negotiations with your bank. Tell them if you dont get the discount you require you will declare bankruptcy and they will have to take the house back anyway and sell it for what they can get. They cannot come after you then for any shortfall. If they threaten to take serious action against you will be able to delay them long enough to give you the time to declare bankruptcy in the UK. You will be able to do this because we are blessed in this country with a dreadfully inefficient legal system. You can delay them with lots of correspondence, meetings and false promises and that gives you time to establish your COMI in the UK. You can easily get the drop on them.
 
Irishbuk said:
I would like to point out that if you declare Bankruptcy in the UK all your debts and judgements are wiped out and the bank cannot, under any circumstances, come after the shortfall after you are discharged in 12 months. This is European law and not just Irish or UK law.
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I have very serious doubts about this statement as the EU directive clearly places the jurisdiction for immovable property and so called entries in a public register in the hands of Irish courts not UK courts. Here is a quote from the EU documentation: "But secondary proceedings can be opened later to liquidate assets in another Member State. The law of the Member State in which such insolvency proceedings are opened determines their effects."

I have yet to see an EU case law which indicates either way as to who has the power to absolve a debt in the case of immovable property and furthermore how would the Irish courts react, if the bank were to show that the whole purpose of the UK actions were to frustrate their rights to recover debts due to them in Ireland, in other words a sham....

I would be very interested in seeing actual case law on this topic rather than legal opinions from parties with a vested interest in the process.

Jim.
 
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