Why would I not want the Gardai to know my DNA profile?

[Sunny]

People don't seem to have a privacy issue when it comes to mobile phones...in theory it's the same as being micro-chipped. All your movements can be tracked by authorities if they have a reason to.
It seems privacy issues only come to the fore if the system being proposed has no direct or apparent benefits to the some people!

You just said it yourself. IF THEY HAVE A REASON TO. They can't get hold of my mobile records without a court order. At the moment, we have a system where everyone is innocent until proven guilty. You go down the road of having everyone's DNA on file, everyones mobile and email traffic monitored and you are basically going down the road of saying everyone is guilty until proved innocent.

Why should I have Police turn up at my door just because my DNA was somehow found at a crime scene even though there is nothing else to link me to a crime. Why am I suddenly in a position where I have to prove my innocence?

 

[Delboy]

compairing a mobile phone to handing over your personal DNA to the state to be used as they see fit is laughable. your mobile phone is hardly likely to turn up at the scene of a crime unless you drop it there yourself!

I dont see how. People are talking here about their privacy and the state monitoring them. Someone even mentioned micro-chipping!
The DNA database has a strict set of governing rules, an overseeing committee. Some on here make it sound like a drive-thru for the Gardai to take samples out and use as they see fit.

Having a mobile phone means your every move could be tracked if the State so wished. But people don't have an issue with that as I said earlier because practically everyone has one and benefits directly.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Why should I have Police turn up at my door just because my DNA was somehow found at a crime scene even though there is nothing else to link me to a crime. Why am I suddenly in a position where I have to prove my innocence?

You don't have to prove your innocence. You are innocent until proven guilty.

But if your DNA is found at the scene, I think that that Gardai are fully entitled to ask you how it got there.

You could well have been at the scene but not involved in the crime.

And it's remotely possible that it is a false positive.

Brendan

 

[MrMan]

It's only you making that distinction - you'll notice I said childrens allowance, claimable by the uber-rich to those not in employment - in a nutshell I'm saying if you want all the good stuff you should be prepared to help out - not subject yourself to medical trials - just have a cotton swab collected - not the end of the world.

On the positives of the database, maybe it'll prevent you from inadvertenly marrying your half sister/brother, as this country slides into GerrySpringer-dom I'm sure it's regularly happening, maybe when you give your 6 months notice they'll do a cross-check and let you know !!

Beyond that IF they want anything from the State they should "play ball", so if you want:

That's actually what you said, and you didn't mention uber rich, just childrens allowance.
I'm already married so I'll just have to cross my fingers that my OH isn't a relation, even though I'm sure cross referencing our DNA results would have added to the early stages romance.

 

[MrMan]

I dont see how. People are talking here about their privacy and the state monitoring them. Someone even mentioned micro-chipping!
The DNA database has a strict set of governing rules, an overseeing committee. Some on here make it sound like a drive-thru for the Gardai to take samples out and use as they see fit.

Having a mobile phone means your every move could be tracked if the State so wished. But people don't have an issue with that as I said earlier because practically everyone has one and benefits directly.

I can chose to not have a mobile phone though, so why shouldn't I chose not to have my DNA taken?

 

[Delboy]

I can chose to not have a mobile phone though, so why shouldn't I chose not to have my DNA taken?

And do you not have a mobile!!! There's more mobile phones than people in this country...95%+ 'choose' to have them

 

[blueband]

the hint is in the word choose......meaning a matter of choice, not something forced upon you by state or government.

 

[ashambles]

Originally Posted by Delboy http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=1350329#post1350329
I dont see how. People are talking here about their privacy and the state monitoring them. Someone even mentioned micro-chipping!
The DNA database has a strict set of governing rules, an overseeing committee. Some on here make it sound like a drive-thru for the Gardai to take samples out and use as they see fit.

You may be mistaking the proposed database for serious offenders which is relatively common versus a theoretical universal database which no country has so far been stupid enough to create.

There is no committee meeting on a universal database, if there was the last person I'd want heading it up would be a judge, you need someone independent with an understanding of the mathematics involved - a maths or statistics professor would be my choice.

Also I believe the ECHR would block a universal database, based on complaints they had on the UK's system where they stored DNA a little too freely.

A possible solution for those who can't understand the problems of a universal database would be an opt in process where they could sign up to add their samples to the serious offenders database.
Clearly they'd have nothing to fear and indeed it would simply lead to a better quality of database. Indeed they should be demanding the government share their sample with Europol, FBI etc. Maybe a few governments who'd be happy say with 7 loci matches etc.

 

[Ceist Beag]

You don't have to prove your innocence. You are innocent until proven guilty.

But if your DNA is found at the scene, I think that that Gardai are fully entitled to ask you how it got there.

You could well have been at the scene but not involved in the crime.

And it's remotely possible that it is a false positive.

Brendan

And if you cannot remember how it got there Brendan? Are the Gardai then fully entitled to consider you a suspect? So you do have to prove you are at least innocent of being at the crime scene at the time of the crime in your book? Should the Gardai not have to have at least some further evidence before being allowed to play the DNA card - I think so.

 

[Leo]

your mobile phone is hardly likely to turn up at the scene of a crime unless you drop it there yourself!

So are you suggesting that someone could extract your DNA profile from a database and then generate a piece of evidence to be planted at a crime scene?

 

[RainyDay]

I'm wondering what database of 'everybody' will the DNA be based on? Do we have a list of 'everybody' in the country to work from?

 

[Purple]

I’m with the pinko’s on this one; I’m not comfortable with the state having a file of everyone’s DNA.
I don’t trust them not to misuse it and I don’t trust them not to give other countries access to it.

Even if they don’t misuse it the state should not have that sort of information on its citizens. Other than taxation there should be no master databases that are specific to individuals and encompass everyone. It’s too Big Brother.
What if they want to find out who is carrying a particular gene or prone to a particular behaviour? Remember that this is one of the faster moving areas of science and medicine and once instituted a genetic database would be in place forever (or forever in practical terms). Who knows what it could be used for in the future.

 

[delgirl]

I remember this terrible story of a female stalker falsifying DNA evidence against her victim by retrieving one of his condoms from a rubbish bin to back up claims he raped her.

The poor man was charged and eventually cleared, but it turned his life upsidedown.

Scientists have also confirmed that they can construct a sample of DNA to match a person's profile without obtaining any tissue from that person.

There have been other cases where DNA has been planted purposely, using hair, saliva from cups, etc. or through cross contamination by crime scene investigators.

It's certainly not 100% foolproof, but in cases like that of the conviction of John Crerar, it was DNA that eventually solved the case 23 years later.

 

[blueband]

So are you suggesting that someone could extract your DNA profile from a database and then generate a piece of evidence to be planted at a crime scene?

only if you were stupid enough to volunteer your DNA to a data base in the first place..

 

[Leo]

only if you were stupid enough to volunteer your DNA to a data base in the first place..

Why aren't they planting fingerprint evidence at all crime scenes so? I think you're giving the average Garda a lot of credit thinking they can somehow plant DNA evidence at a crime scene with only a DB entry to go on!

 

[blueband]

what it comes down to is the fact that we would have no idea who exactly would have access to such a database if it ever existed..as purple says the state could even give other countries access to it!...way too risky

 

[RainyDay]

Why aren't they planting fingerprint evidence at all crime scenes so? I think you're giving the average Garda a lot of credit thinking they can somehow plant DNA evidence at a crime scene with only a DB entry to go on!

No need to plant evidence when you can just change the database entry to match the evidence that you've found.

 

[dam099]

No need to plant evidence when you can just change the database entry to match the evidence that you've found.

Exactly, or on the flip side alter the labs report on the DNA evidence to match the database entry. Some of the top computer companies in the world and the Pentagon can't keep hackers out of their systems so can we rely on the Irish government to keep theirs secure? Right now to frame someone by hacking, you would need access to the lab testing any DNA evidence and their DNA profile, which fortunately isn't on a database right now so short of physical access to your DNA they can't get it. If you were to create a universal database then both profiles needed are potentially available to a hacker.

Retesting by the defence for a trial might ultimately prove innocence but the State doesn't have a good track record on owning up to its mistakes so I'd be wary. Also sometimes there may only be enough of the DNA evidence sample for one test, if that test is altered the only way to prove it might be to find evidence of tampering with the computer systems.

Also being arrested, questioned and perhaps spending time on remand for a serious crime are themselves pretty severe consequences even if an innocent person were to be ultimately exonerated by retesting.

 

[Purple]

I'm sure that if your DNA was found, based on a database entry, they would check you again to confirm that it was correct.

 

[Latrade]

Exactly, or on the flip side alter the labs report on the DNA evidence to match the database entry. Some of the top computer companies in the world and the Pentagon can't keep hackers out of their systems so can we rely on the Irish government to keep theirs secure? Right now to frame someone by hacking, you would need access to the lab testing any DNA evidence and their DNA profile, which fortunately isn't on a database right now so short of physical access to your DNA they can't get it. If you were to create a universal database then both profiles needed are potentially available to a hacker.

And Kevin Mitnick could launch nuclear missles just by a specific whistle down the phone*.

Unfortunately no such hack has given access to the types of information you suspect. It's not to say there wouldn't have to be serious questions and precautions in place to protect the database, but that kind of access you fear is more a facet of Hollywood than reality.

Then Pentagon has suffered DNS attacks, which isn't hacking. Major corporations have had people access databases on passwords, credit cards etc which is a concern I'd agree, but easily secured.

The biggest concern would be the people in charge of the database. How trained are they on Social Engineering (not at all), but a better example would be the numerous breaches of Data Protection from HSE, Banks and Services from losing and disposing of laptops and USB Keys.

I share all concern about the state's ability or capability of securing the system. For example Gardai still, illegally, access PULSE, but also the falability of those in charge, the encryption of the information, etc. However, I wouldn't worry too much about the Hollywood style hackers (but Sneakers is still an awesome film).




*he couldn't, that was an absurd accusation from the prosecution that a Judge actually believed could happen.