Why no mention of that "bankrupcty"

I just don't understand why so many people are blaming Quinn for the €2Billion Anglo debt.

Sean Quinn didn't guarantee the banks nor did he nationalise Anglo - it was the Irish government that did that!

Sean Quinn took business risks and lost. Unfortunately for us, the Irish government intervened.
 
umop3p!sdn said:
I just don't understand why so many people are blaming Quinn for the €2Billion Anglo debt.

Sean Quinn didn't guarantee the banks nor did he nationalise Anglo - it was the Irish government that did that!

Sean Quinn took business risks and lost. Unfortunately for us, the Irish government intervened.
Click to expand...

Eh? Because he borrowed the money. He borrowed it not to invest in a business, he invested in it to gamble to increase his personal wealth by taking a gamble on Anglos share price. He put his company on the line for personal gain.
Thats not even mentioning the disgraceful running of an insurance company that put policy holders at risk. Are you saying the Government should not have intervened there? There are plenty of people struggling to pay their mortgage that would love to walk into a court in Belfast and get themselves declared bankrupt.
 
Sunny said:
Eh? Because he borrowed the money. He borrowed it not to invest in a business, he invested in it to gamble to increase his personal wealth by taking a gamble on Anglos share price. Thats not even mentioning the disgraceful running of an insurance company that put policy holders at risk. Are you saying the Government should not have intervened there? There are plenty of people struggling to pay their mortgage that would love to walk into a court in Belfast and get themselves declared bankrupt.
Click to expand...

No, of course the government should not of intervened. Look where that has left us! - every one paying back the debt.

As for your second point, well people are going to the UK to become bankrupt, isn't there even threads on AAM about it? I'm sure I've also heard of companies being set up to facilitate people. Why not? - if I had a half million euro house in huge negative equity, I'd be long gone to the UK for bankruptcy.

Ah c'mon, he did a bit more than that!
Click to expand...
We don't know that Sean Quinn did anything illegal. As long as everything he did was legal, then I can't see the problem with the way he ran his companies.

I'll reiterate, the problem was the government's decision to nationalise the banks and also guarantee them. If it wasn't for these decisions, then we would not be paying back Sean Quinn's debts.
 
umop3p!sdn said:
No, of course the government should not of intervened. Look where that has left us! - every one paying back the debt.

As for your second point, well people are going to the UK to become bankrupt, isn't there even threads on AAM about it? I'm sure I've also heard of companies being set up to facilitate people. Why not? - if I had a half million euro house in huge negative equity, I'd be long gone to the UK for bankruptcy.


We don't know that Sean Quinn did anything illegal. As long as everything he did was legal, then I can't see the problem with the way he ran his companies.

I'll reiterate, the problem was the government's decision to nationalise the banks and also guarantee them. If it wasn't for these decisions, then we would not be paying back Sean Quinn's debts.
Click to expand...

No, the problem was the Sean Quinn did the equivalent of going to Vegas and putting every cent he owned and all the jobs of the people he employed on black, and red came up.

The Govt guarantee had nothing to do with this, Anglo share price was in free fall long before that the Govt nationalised the banks and Quinn would not be in a position to pay Anglo back and would still have been declared bankrupt.

You can argue that if the Govt guarentee had not existed, then we would not have been picking up the tab for the €2bn. However, instead, we probably would have had much of our savings wiped out, major banks gone to the wall and no credit available for businesses. Things are bad now, they would have been far worse. it's an incredibly naive view to think that if we hadn't had the guarantee, we would not be in the mess we're in
 
Here's the issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

Recently people have been very principled and clear on why casino capitalism and cronyism have screwed us as a nation.

Sean Quinn was part of that but is being defended by people who benefitted from it for a while. They won't acknowledge that they only had a job as a byproduct of the type of fly by night cowboyism that has left us in the hole we're in.

It doesn't matter whether it's D4, Cavan or North Tipp, we can't continue this doublethink of excusing the irresponsible behaviour if it has benefitted us and our locality.
 
DerKaiser said:
Sean Quinn was part of that but is being defended by people who benefitted from it for a while. They won't acknowledge that they only had a job as a byproduct of the type of fly by night cowboyism that has left us in the hole we're in.

It doesn't matter whether it's D4, Cavan or North Tipp, we can't continue this doublethink of excusing the irresponsible behaviour if it has benefitted us and our locality.
Click to expand...

Note that not one person in Cavan or Fermanagh ever benefitted from Quinn's dealings with/in Anglo.
 
umop3p!sdn said:
I just don't understand why so many people are blaming Quinn for the €2Billion Anglo debt.

Sean Quinn didn't guarantee the banks nor did he nationalise Anglo - it was the Irish government that did that!

Sean Quinn took business risks and lost. Unfortunately for us, the Irish government intervened.
Click to expand...

No he didn't. Unless the business of the Quinn Group was betting the house on an individual CFD.

He's been in the press moaning about how he's being characterised as a reckless gambler. Quite disgusting to be honest.
 
I'm reading 'The Fitzpatrick Tapes' at the moment. It is very clear that very large billion euro decisions by both Anglo and Quinn were being made on the back of an envelope, with no risk assessment involved at all. Fitzpatrick wasn't aware of the full scale of Quinn's existing borrowings from Anglo at the time that they arranged the Golden Circle sell-off.
 
Complainer said:
Fitzpatrick wasn't aware of the full scale of Quinn's existing borrowings from Anglo at the time that they arranged the Golden Circle sell-off.
Click to expand...
Shocking stuff; no due diligence done on transactions in the billions. If that’s not reckless trading then the law is as ass.
 
Purple said:
Shocking stuff; no due diligence done on transactions in the billions. If that’s not reckless trading then the law is as ass.
Click to expand...

I think this is human nature...ever notice people scrutinising over different tinned beans in the supermarget to get the best deals? The difference is pennies, yet the same people probably bought their last car/holiday/home (eve) on a whim.
 
Firefly said:
Are you far into it and is it any good? Looks like one of the better ones written about the whole sorry saga.
Click to expand...

It's worth reading. Your local library should have it. It paints a clear picture that Fitzpatrick was not the smartest spanner in the tool shed, but he was the salesman and the schmoozer that made deals happen.
 
T McGibney said:
Note that not one person in Cavan or Fermanagh ever benefitted from Quinn's dealings with/in Anglo.
Click to expand...

The money Quinn was loaned by Anglo to buy Anglo shares is not the entirety of his reckless behaviour.

Quinn Direct was shown to be insolvent when reviewed independently.

Not many people in Cavan/Fermanagh would have benefitted from Quinn's CFD misadventures but they did benefit temporarily from the unsustainable jobs he wrongly created as well as the sustainable ones that he rightly created.

Now you can't blame anyone for taking a job, but lets be clear, people are defending him because he brought prosperity to the area, some of which is now shown to be nothing more than a credit fuelled misadventure that is costing all of us money.
 
DerKaiser said:
The money Quinn was loaned by Anglo to buy Anglo shares is not the entirety of his reckless behaviour.

Quinn Direct was shown to be insolvent when reviewed independently.

Not many people in Cavan/Fermanagh would have benefitted from Quinn's CFD misadventures but they did benefit temporarily from the unsustainable jobs he wrongly created as well as the sustainable ones that he rightly created.

Now you can't blame anyone for taking a job, but lets be clear, people are defending him because he brought prosperity to the area, some of which is now shown to be nothing more than a credit fuelled misadventure that is costing all of us money.
Click to expand...

The solvency of Quinn Direct only became an issue when the entire group was put into administration. I know nothing of the intricacies of its solvency position at that time and for that reason I don't particularly want to comment in that regard but the principles of going concern suggests that the 'going concern' worth of a company is always higher than the 'firesale' value that would apply once the company is put into administration.

I would suggest that it is a bit off to be dismissing a company with as decent long-term track record as Quinn Direct as "nothing more than a credit fuelled misadventure that is costing all of us money". There are plenty of companies that would fall into that bracket, if those criteria were applied.
 
T McGibney said:
The solvency of Quinn Direct only became an issue when the entire group was put into administration. I know nothing of the intricacies of its solvency position at that time and for that reason I don't particularly want to comment in that regard but the principles of going concern suggests that the 'going concern' worth of a company is always higher than the 'firesale' value that would apply once the company is put into administration.
Click to expand...

They breached the solvency rules. You don't get into rows on solvency with the regulator if you want to credibly do business in an industry where solvency and reputation are paramount. Unfortunately for Quinn, a field valued at €1m in Co Cavan in 2007 does not satisfy solvency requirements in the same way as a promise by the german government to pay you €1m in 3 months would.

T McGibney said:
I would suggest that it is a bit off to be dismissing a company with as decent long-term track record as Quinn Direct as "nothing more than a credit fuelled misadventure that is costing all of us money". There are plenty of companies that would fall into that bracket, if those criteria were applied.
Click to expand...

I really don't want to get into a full scale argument here, but 15 years odd is not long term in the insurance industry.

The Insurance Compensation Fund is paying Liberty Mutual €738m to take over Quinn Insurance funded by a levy on insurance policyholders.

Need I say anymore about why Quinn Direct does deserve our scorn?
 
Complainer said:
...It paints a clear picture that Fitzpatrick was not the smartest spanner in the tool shed, but he was the salesman and the schmoozer that made deals happen.
Click to expand...

I'm sure his defense will consider this argument too...all the board's fault yer honour..
 
The fact though that Quinn Direct has found a buyer and is still a going concern must count for something though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top