Jeepers, I was only pointing out that bitcoin being divisible to eight decimal points makes it more accessible to people of third world incomes than first world currencies.
In a decentralised system, where is the data stored? In a private database in a secure data center?
Divisibility without function is pointless, unless there is demand to transact at sub cent levels, bitcoin is more divisible than is useful.
It's yourself and his Dukeness that have laboured the point. From the very start of this part of the discussion, I am on record as saying that divisibility is a core characteristic of any currency - but in the comparison of gold/bitcoin/FIAT in that respect, the significant take away is that gold is in no way divisible and on that basis alone, it's not suitable as a medium of exchange.They're both divisible to the point of futility, why go further? Crypto fans have failed to justify why they feel this is such a strong point.
Only because you're diametrically opposed to crypto - and in that case, you're quite right Leo - you shouldn't go anywhere near it. Just like I said, if there was a discount for paying with Bitcoin (which oftentimes there is as the vendor saves on credit card fees) you'd still not avail of it because of what amounts to a political view rather than a pragmatic view.So no benefit over my current use of fiat, thanks.
In your case, completely pointless as you have no notion at looking at this pragmatically. My question was would you pay the equivalent of $9.50 with Bitcoin or would you pay $10 via your bank/visa. It's a simple enough question - and it doesn't get answered with the unnecessary follow up question.Give me an example of one thing I can buy with bitcoin for $9.50 that would cost $10 with Visa?
Bitcoin is implicated on opening and closing an LN channel. The point you are making doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the user. As far as they're concerned, they're paying with Bitcoin. I have a LN wallet with Bitcoin loaded in it. Not anything else - Bitcoin. I can have someone else install the very same wallet and receive Bitcoin. It's that simple.No, you're effectively buying LN tokens with bitcoin that you can then trade or exchange (assuming there's a funded path established), and at a later date you can trade those tokens back for bitcoin. There isn't a single bitcoin that lives on the lightning network.
I see. This is intriguing. My understanding was that the origins of the IoT go back to the early eighties. eBooks? - I'm sorry but that's in no way comparable! I see you didn't give the timeline for my other examples - the internet or AI? Are you suggesting that there should be a cut off point for tech - that at a given date, all innovation stops? That would make a whole lot of sense, right?Well, IoT to take one of your examples is considered to have taken up to 8 years for mass adoption, some claim less. Mass adoption of eBooks took a similar timeframe, mass adoption of tablet computing was even quicker, mass adoption of microwave ovens also happened very quickly. We're 11-12 years into bitcoin, the rate of adoption is actually quite slow.
That's inaccurate but if that delusion makes you feel better - peachy!So you don't understand well enough to back up your claims, fine.
There is no 'blind spot'. I acknowledged that whilst it's not a definitive part of FIAT that further digital division is possible. Go back and re-read previous posts. It's a misrepresentation to claim that. The issue has been that you have suggested that there's some inaccuracy on Kelleher's part in relation to divisibility. That's incorrect. He has compared them as they have been set out - and they have been set out such that Bitcoin has eight places of decimal and FIAT has two. You must be harbouring some deep seated insecurities in terms of the case for FIAT currency given the way you're labouring on this point.I fear that it may be explanation 2 in post #414 that prevents you understanding that fiat in its digital manifestation is not restricted to 2 decimal places. Ask Airtricity - €0.1496 per unit . Ask any life company who routinely quote their unit prices to 3 decimal places.
It would be unfair of me to keep exposing your blind spot on this, so relax I will spare your blushes.
He also doesn't grasp the reality that consumer demand is for less divisibility, look at the success of the elimination of 1 & 2c coins from circulation. Also, in PAYE calculations, credits and benefits are rounded to the nearest Euro in the individual's favour.
That's incorrect. I haven't. However, I have cited Vijay Boyapati - who has included it in his comparison of gold/fiat/bitcoin as a store of value. I would say it makes complete since that it belongs in both comparisons - that of store of value and that of means of exchange.tecate has included divisibility as a factor in store of value, which clearly it isn't, witness gold, diamonds, rubies, real estate, works of art.
That's incorrect. Now it's time to talk about compliance! This unwieldy worldwide AML/KYC compliance and regulatory regime - together with the banks - is disenfranchising these people. Significant costs come with all of that nonsense - and on that basis, banks won't bank the unbanked. The system fails them.Accounts being too expensive is only cited by a very small percentage as the sole reason they do not have an account.
Fair play to you Wolfie you have wrested another concession from me. I concede that third world folk cannot have a $ account less than 1c whereas a lesser constraint applies to bitcoin, if said third world folk have a smartphone. See how I keep giving.Jeepers, I was only pointing out that bitcoin being divisible to eight decimal points makes it more accessible to people of third world incomes than first world currencies.
If that is not agreeable, then I have failed in my peace making mission and shall say no more.
A career in stand-up awaits you, your Dukeness. By all means, link to one previous post where you have acknowledged one positive characteristic of Bitcoin. Despite 2 years of posts, you won't be able to.another concession from me.
You can try and twist this all day long - but that's not the reality of the unbanked. The reality is that they can't gain access to a bank account because of this unwieldy worldwide regulatory and compliance regime (KYC/AML) that has been put in place. That comes with costs - and when the unbanked can't meet these ridiculous requirements or they're not lucrative enough for banks to be bothered with - especially in consideration of the compliance/regulatory overhead then it's a case of tough luck. That doesn't mean accounts with just a few cents.I concede that third world folk cannot have a $ account less than 1c
I live in the developing world - practically everyone here has what would be termed a smartphone - oftentimes with cracked screens but they've got them.if said third world folk have a smartphone.
I concede that third world folk cannot have a $ account less than 1c whereas a lesser constraint applies to bitcoin, if said third world folk have a smartphone.
In the blockchain
Micropayments between IOT devices are a use case for this. That’s one reason why divisibility can be important.
That's inaccurate but if that delusion makes you feel better - peachy!
That's an example already cited and addressed earlier in the thread. There's no demand or utility to such low level transactions.
This is not an issue for me
This is not an issue for ... people in the developed world
Jayz Wolfie I am discussing the divisibility of fiat/bitcoin and for some reason you decide to carpet bomb me with the whole armoury of Big Short moral superiority.I do detect the tone of "well, if I'm alright Jack....what's the issue?" permeating throughout your posts. Others, to lesser or greater extent, do tend to have a more broader outlook in general and can empathize more on the impact of affairs on others even if such affairs are unlikely in the extreme to ever impact directly on themselves.
Such as, say, the Black Lives Matter movement. I'm not black, I don't live in fear of the police, so why would I have to concern myself about it? What exactly is the problem with these people? Probably their own doing, right?
It did not take me very much effort to dip a cursory toe into racial matters of the US to understand that, yes, there is very much a deeply and profoundly embedded culture of discrimination and racism in that country against African-Americans. That affords me to develop a perspective that even if I am not directly affected, I, or my family or community may be indirectly affected, if not now, but in the future in some similarly negative way.
I take these things into account when developing my own perspective on matters.
I'm not, by the way, suggesting that you are in any way racist, I'm just using it as another example of how if something does not affect you directly you quite often openly dismiss or question the substance, merit or value (or lack of) of the thing that is directly affecting others, eg - bitcoin, religion (outside of your own beliefs), BLM, 49m people in Vietnam with no bank accounts.
It is actually.
And yet you're engaging in subterfuge to try and provide an alternate and wholly inaccurate reason for the unbanked issue. As per post # 428, it's due to unwieldy AML/KYC compliance/regulation. The cost of same and a decision by the banks to exclude a less lucrative subset of the population. However, that doesn't involve accounts with just a few cents in them as you're trying to suggest.@WolfeTone and @tecate I was speaking specifically to the divisibility debate not the more general aspects of unbanked folk in the undeveloped (carefully avoiding Third) world.
And yet Kelleher was right all the while despite your protestations - as officially outlined, Bitcoin has eight places of decimal and FIAT currency has two.I now accept that whilst there is absolutely no systemic limit to the divisibility of fiat
You? A narrowness of vision? I doubt anyone would dream of suggesting such a thing, your Dukeness.Theo has exposed my narrowness of vision in that regard.
That's your opinion. There's a whole industry emerging around both personal and IoT data relative to distributed ledger technology.That's an example already cited and addressed earlier in the thread. There's no demand or utility to such low level transactions.
That works both ways Leo. This is a discussion - if you'd like to backup your own counter-claims then have at it.it should be quite easy for you to prove it's innacurate, right?
Jayz Wolfie I am discussing the divisibility of fiat/bitcoin and for some reason you decide to carpet bomb me with the whole armoury of Big Short moral superiority.
That works both ways Leo. This is a discussion - if you'd like to backup your own counter-claims then have at it.
I agree but that is not a divisibility point.And yet you're engaging in subterfuge to try and provide an alternate and wholly inaccurate reason for the unbanked issue. As per post # 428, it's due to unwieldy AML/KYC compliance/regulation.
In answer to that, I'd encourage you to go back and review this thread. Nobody has provided more citations and underpinned the argument presented to the extent that I have. On the flipside, if your objective is to provide for open discussion and debate (rather than simply sledging Bitcoin), then that will involve you bringing evidence to the table to back up your counter claim.There's not a whole lot of point in having a discussion with someone who makes claims but offers no evidence to back them up.
I've long since provided my opinion on the tar and feathering of Bitcoin (through these 'cult' refererences) and those who see value in it. It's unbecoming for anyone to participate in it and does nothing to further your argument against Bitcoin. The default fall back position to this nonsense is relied upon when folks here can't make a tangible case against Bitcoin and decentralised digital currencies.Following the trend of cult, it's like discussing religion with someone putting forward their faith as evidence of fact.
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