Why is Architect reluctant to give me CAD drawings? and architects' qualifications?

[onq]

Hi IPH,

Welcome to AAM

I don't have any problem issuing the drawings to another designer - if I have been paid to date and the client doesn't want my services after planning permission - so be it. If my clients want to use another architect, that's their choice, but that's the only case in which I'd issue the CAD drawings.

I would however, have a problem with handover if I had given the client a sweet deal at planning stage to facilitate their cash flow on the understanding I would make it back at later project stages, tender, construction and certification.

IPH I'd be very careful about spraying "unfit for purpose" allegations around this forum - Design Professionals are entitled to protect their copyright. Clients are entitled to a set of copy planning documents if that's as far as the job goes and no more. We are not printing companies unless we get paid for it.

Where there is a fee agreement to planning lodgement only, our duty to our client ends when the planning permission is lodged, - unless its declared invalid for some reason that's down to us and we have re-lodge it, that's it. We do not, cannot, guarantee a permission will issue.

I have little time for clients who take the scheme from the architect and give it to a builder after planning, thinking the design work is done, then make loads of changes which the builder isn't competent to advise on or advise against, and then go around blaming the architect when it doesn't pan out.

A typical scenario is the client who decides to dump the architect and then make changes to the internals of the house, which can affect structural strategies included by the architect at planning stage - for a design feature or to help buildability.

The client may not have been fully briefed on these, or may not have understood the implications of, for example - a feature central column to carry the upper floor load which gets removed. The client then bemoans the cost of the house which now requires a specialist 8 M clear span beam instead of 2 x 4M spans and a column.

Most clients are not competent to make such revisions in the absence of an architect and engineer and most builders are not designers of spaces or structures, so sending to your client any more than a PDF file is unwise. It will at least flag the issue to another follow-on designer should issues arise.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[ronny78]

What genunine Clients has a registered copy of a leading CAD package? Needed to open a CAD drawing.

In my experience Clients that request CAD format drawings ALWAYS have alterior motives.

Well some of us are engineers with registered CAD packages on our laptops that we can use from home in the evenings. And being engineers we may just want the drawings to use to add in layers for where we were putting the plumbing or the electrics or god forbid, the furniture in the kitchen.

We used an architect on the design of our house and agreed up front it was only to planning permission and thereafter I asked could I have a CAD copy of the drawing, not thinking anything of it as I am using the package everyday, and he obliged. I suppose there are clients out there without scruples, but working in an office of engineers (mechanical and electrical mostly) we just genuinely like having the drawings so we can happily project manage what we are doing with the garden !

Your post seemed so cynical I just had to respond as a genuine requestor of CAD drawings !

 

[Ceist Beag]

You can import CAD drawings into Google Sketchup so you don't need any expensive software to request these from your architect!

 

[onq]

ronny78,

That is why I allow other disciplines to use my drawings - speed accuracy and efficiency.

Ceist Beag

Thanks for that - I recently downloaded Sketcheup to evaluate it and that will save me a lot of time I think.

ONQ.

 

[RKQ]

We used an architect on the design of our house and agreed up front it was only to planning permission

I agree fully with ONQ, I don't have any problem issuing the drawings to another designer - if I have been PAID to date and the client doesn't want my services after planning permission - so be it. If my clients want to use another architect, that's their choice, but that's the only case in which I'd issue the CAD drawings.

In my experience Clients that request CAD format drawings ALWAYS have alterior motives. Especially if they ask after contract terms have been agreed or expect it as a freebee. Its a sneaky way of getting the originals. If the want to retain another professional to Tender, Inspect... then so be it but why not be honest, upfront and professional about it?

IPH - you seem to be misreading my post.
What makes you think "goods are no longer fit for purpose (client can't use them) maybe he is entitled to a refund under consumer protection legislation".
Why would a Client want Cad files if they are of no use or no longer fit for purpose?

When I buy a music download or CD, I know I have a copy to listen too.
I do not expect the get the Master Tapes, so I can alter the original music or make multiple copies of my altered original!!! I understand that the Artist owns the Master Copy.

 

[sfag]

Hi,

We have just obtained planning on the basis of very basic drawings which were done up by an Architect - Can anyone tell me why there should be a reluctance to pass on the CAD drawings to me so i can seek quotes myself. I appreciate there could be some difficulty if these drawings were to be relied on by someone supervising the build but they are very simple. To get them would allow me send them by email to get quotes for windows, slates etc. We have paid all fees so surely I should be entitled to them?

Also this architect was to be for design only - there was never any question of her being involved in supervision of the building. Surely copyright cant be an issue as anyone can get a hard copy of the drawings by going to the Planning office. Any insight would be appreciated...

I am also in a quandary about whether architect or engineer is the best way to go in terms of supervising a build. I have been reading ONQ's postings with interest. I am of the belief that an Architect may be brilliant on design and compliance issues but how do they know for instance what type of timber should be used for the roof. How do they assess the load bearing qualities? Do they just rely on the Building Regs for all such matters, unless they deem something to be of a structural issue. And surely the whole of building a house is a structural issue.

We have received a fee proposal from one Architect who seems to be a very decent guy and would be very precise and particular and we would like to go with him but he didn't really give me any comfort on how he is qualified in relation to the structural considerations of house buildings.

Brigid.

Hi Brigit

Getting back to your original question(s) - if you want to go with someone else simply get them to do the cad drawings afresh from your outline drawings. It wont take long.

I self built in 2005. All the architects were quoting 10% of the estimated build price in those days.
I went with an engineer who was also a builder.
I designed the house and he did the drawings, building submissions etc, see my other related post today in response to a different question.

I found the builders (went direct labour) could work off his drawings with out problem.
Most specifications - except for structure - are pretty much standard - unless you are going into really fancy materials - so its a copy and paste job for the autocad user. For the flat roof - he consulted a roofing expert and the structual engineers.

The cost was 5 grand.

Whether you use an architect or an engineer both defer on the structural specifications - a structual engineer will do this.

Their fee will be separate.
Again the price can flucuate.
I had an extension done 10 years ago and the structural engineer recommended by the architect cost a grand for a few beams.

My house build 5 years later cost €750 for a much larger grand design of a house with much more complicated structures. This structural engineering firm was recommended by the engineer.

If your house has large beam spans, canterlevered balconies, is three stories tall, on soft ground, etc you will need structural engineer specifications, load bearing qualities, etc.
In short - the really important stuff is done by the structural engineer. I'm sure the architech/engineer can guess what you will need from experience but the structual engineer had the letters after their names to stand by their calculations.

This can work to your advantage as it leaves you free to choose either an architect or engineer for the drawings. Regardless of which you use get a fixed price and include the 6 site visits.
If you have a good idea of what you want then go engineer. If you are short of ideas - and want to go completely original - then get an architect.
Either way keep your drawings simple.

fwiw - on the arguement above - my engineer gave me the drawings in autocad format to take away. No issue.
I know my case was different but either way I cant understand how the autocad drawings could not be yours to do what ever you like - after all that is what you paid for.
I doubt if there has have ever been a house design copy right issue proved in court - my neighbours house is a designed house - by an architect - except it has been copied from somewhere else - I've seen it in a book. "good artists copy, great artists steal".

 

[threebedsemi]

Regarding the issue of CAD drawings to clients, any agent who bases his/her construction drawings on a drawing prepared by someone else without carrying out their own detailed examination and of the property in question is engaged in questionable practice imo.
The only use of such drawings in CAD format to the 'second' agent is that they will speed up the process of carrying out this survey somewhat, and will save the agent from having to digitise paper drawings or convert pdf's. This is a couple of hours work in most cases for a small project.
I generally issue all drawings to clients in pdf format and in hard copy. This is what they pay me for in my opinion, and software exists to convert the pdf's into CAD (i.e. vector based) drawings should someone want to do this.
A 'copy' of drawings in my opinon simply means a version of the drawings capable of being used by the client for the purposes for which the drawing was created. This purpose can be served by a hard copy of any drawing, and cad drawings add no further functionality to this purpose.

Regarding Architects qualifications, I note that Mr. John O'Donoghue has recently proposed a members bill in this regard which is likely to raise some hackles. 'Interesting' times ahead on the relevant forums.

 

[RKQ]

When you buy a book, you purchase a hard copy or paper copy. In law you can not expect to approach the Writer and insist on a copy of his / her work in Word fordmat!

All Architects are not yet registered, as the mechanism to register is not yet in place. Google Technical Assessment.

IMO "Copy" means paper copy only.
I do provide pdf copies as I consider them to be digital paper copies.
The Client is free to convert these pdf if he / she so desires. I've yet to pdf converter that perfectly converts pdf to cad - text conversion is usually a problem.

Retain your Architect / Designer by reputation. Look at your Architects past work, speak to past Clients etc.

 

[onq]

Re Qualification. From 2009 all "Architects" have to be registered and listed as an "Architect" and it is illegal for any person who is not registered to use the term or call themselves an "Architect". Any one can inspect the list and check if an "Architect is a "registered Architect" and check the "Architects" qualifications.

(snip)

Firstly, the RIAI website itself confirms that the Register is not definitive, with applications still being processed and matters not yet in place to allow processing in some cases.

Secondly, there is - as yet - no restriction as to the provision of architectural services - only the use of the title "architect" is controlled and persons wishing to use the Title in Ireland must Register.

Registration has occurred within limits that has allowed Members of the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland to become automatically Registered.

Registration disenfranchised everyone else, including those with more than seven years practical experience providing services and holders of prescribed degrees.

The provision of services is not regulated not is it proposed to be regulated.

Thirdly, the matter of Registration is currently being reviewed by the Dáil as you can see here:

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1066865&postcount=1

FWIW

ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[hirsute]

Hi all, I know I'm about 8 years too late for this discussion but have only just come across it on my web travels. I am an architect so feel I can give you all a definitive response to your various discussion points.

Point 1, unless stated otherwise in your architects appointment, the copyright of their design remains with them, and you will be granted a licence to use the design for your own purposes once all fees have been paid. You therefore can not 'sell' the design on to a third party as they will be in breach of the copyright if they then try and build it without having the copyright or a licence to use the design transferred to them also. Most architects would likely agree to this but usually for a fee.

Point 2, unless stated in the architects appointment you are not 'entitled' to a copy of their CAD drawings. CAD software is simply a tool for assisting in the creation of drawings that the architect has been employed to issue to you, whether that be on paper or an electronic format such as pdf. The CAD drawings should be seen as a step in how the final drawings are created and are not the product in themselves, unless of course you have agreed that you require them in the initial appointment agreement.

So in summary you will more than likely own a licence to use the design that you have employed an architect to produce, and unless you agreed otherwise at the appointment stage you do not own the CAD drawings that were used to create the final design drawings. So do not be disappointed if you find out at a later stage that the architect won't let you have them, as that is usually the default position.

 

[Cosmic girl]

Hi

just having a similar issue as the appointed interior designer. We used to BIND the drawings so they could not be steered and issue them as CAD files

it was still intact as a legitimate document unless the end user exploded them

this binding system is designed to keep cad drawings as a legal copy Incase they were altered and amended for foul accusation or mid use

it’s easily done and shouldn’t stop the architect from sending them likewise
If a client has paid then they should have the copies

most clients require hard cad files for ‘after-use’ minor alterations etc and it’s useful for them to retain

saying this the architect in my current job is refusing point blank