I think it proves the evolution of your assessment of the utility and value of a scarce, unconfiscatable, immutable, borderless digital asset. People affix value. Most likely you wouldn't have had the same reaction to the consideration of gold in the place of Bitcoin in that analogy yet as per all of the above, gold is largely the subject of a store of value use case (as in that's largely what gives it its value).Let me think about this.....a car or a Bitcoin? I think you are proving how absurd the current valuation is. QED as they say.
Good for you - we all have to start somewhere! Lets see...alongside the criminals - how about citizens that want to shield their wealth from a regime that's gone rogue (of which there are many at any given time)?And for the record I don't think Bitcoin will reach zero.....as long as criminals use it, it will be worth something.
Do these potatoes have scarcity designed in? Can you use them to transmit value digitally round the planet in minutes? As with other such analogies, this one fails to accept and acknowledge that Bitcoin brings certain values to the table.If I were to offer you €12k worth of potatoes, would you accept? If so you accept that potatoes have a value in today's market. But I bet you'd be looking to off load them as quickly as possible right? Not hold on to them as a store of value for a few years?
I agree that there are plenty of issues to resolve. I don't think they're insurmountable but only time will tell.Bitcoin isn't that complex. Perhaps you could head over to the other thread and share your thoughts on how you think the scaling problem will be addressed? Can the protocol be adapted so that the current limit of ~7tps will ever come close to 100,000tps? Every layer 2 proposal I've looking into to date involves taking your money out of Bitcoin and into another platform. What are your thoughts on the power demands of proof of work? Is that viable in the long term assuming broad adoption in terms of cost versus reward, especially as we experience future halvings?
Do these potatoes have scarcity designed in? Can you use them to transmit value digitally round the planet in minutes? As with other such analogies, this one fails to accept and acknowledge that Bitcoin brings certain values to the table.
For €1k, no, I wouldn't take Bitcoin.
Something better will come along, when it does, it'll be a race to get out as the price plummets.
Sorry I didn't realize that you're opinion is based on it having to be stable in order to be a store of value?
I treat the value as a variable.
The goal of a store of value is as a safe haven against depreciation that affects other assets. Predictability within certain understood constraints, particularly in relation to the base level, is fundamental. Many predict Bitcoin will attain this quality as adoption increases and demand stabilises resulting in a more predictable price, but I think most commentators agree that it's some way off the mark at this point. Ask anyone who bought in at $20k how they feel about Bitcoin as a store of value against the traditional stores.
I think it proves the evolution of your assessment of the utility and value of a scarce, unconfiscatable, immutable, borderless digital asset. People affix value. Most likely you wouldn't have had the same reaction to the consideration of gold in the place of Bitcoin in that analogy yet as per all of the above, gold is largely the subject of a store of value use case (as in that's largely what gives it its value).
Good for you - we all have to start somewhere! Lets see...alongside the criminals - how about citizens that want to shield their wealth from a regime that's gone rogue (of which there are many at any given time)?
You're cherry picking the worst example in terms of volatility. Additionally, gold has had some pretty savage corrections of its own in its not too distant past. Other than that, I think there's a misunderstanding over what makes a store of value.Leo said:The goal of a store of value is as a safe haven against depreciation that affects other assets. Predictability within certain understood constraints, particularly in relation to the base level, is fundamental. Many predict Bitcoin will attain this quality as adoption increases and demand stabilises resulting in a more predictable price, but I think most commentators agree that it's some way off the mark at this point. Ask anyone who bought in at $20k how they feel about Bitcoin as a store of value against the traditional stores.
Well, there;'s a few things to unpack there. Firstly, I don't know yer missus - perhaps she's a raging Bitcoin maximalist! :-DWell I know if I came home to the missus with 8 grand in gold she would be properly happier than having the cash itself. On the otherhand if I came home and told her that instead of 8 grand in cash we know are the proud owner of a Bitcoin I'm pretty sure the reaction would be quite different!!
Well, perhaps we need to be questioning governments a bit more, don't you think. If something is inherently unjust and it implicates personal finances, I'd sooner have it in crypto. People get labeled all manner of things - doesn't mean we have to be accepting of it.Using Bitcoin (or anything else) to shield their wealth from a regime that's gone rogue will generally make them criminals too but I take your point.
Doesn't matter. There are people at all points in the wealth spectrum affected when a country is financially mismanaged.Sadly, you'll find that those poor sods don't have much of anything anyway.... Any idea of what kind of wealth we are talking about?
Ah, this old chestnut :-DAnd more importantly, given Bitcoin is up and running a decade now, any idea of how many people have used it for such purposes???
There are people at all points in the wealth spectrum affected when a country is financially mismanaged.
The internet didn't unfold for years - nor will this.
I do not fully agree with those initial two statements. Gold is not a Risk Free asset, it is viewed as a safer asset to Equities and Bonds during times of market stress and that is why the correlation in these markets should be< 0. However if I am a cash investor buying gold I am taking on price risk, therefore the investors has the same type of risk as a Bitcoin investor, with bitcoin of course the price risk is greater due to the volatility.
I do agree that the stability is way off the mark at the minute but I see the potential years down the line for it to operate similar to Gold.
You're cherry picking the worst example in terms of volatility. Additionally, gold has had some pretty savage corrections of its own in its not too distant past. Other than that, I think there's a misunderstanding over what makes a store of value.
Question: If an item losses 33% of its value in a single year, is it a store of value...OR...would such an event make it null and void as a store of value?
I'm sorry but that's just not an informed view. It being 'well known' doesn't mean there should be an expectation that it either gets used now or we decide that it's not being used now, ergo it will never be used. A move towards digital currency is no small thing. Bitcoin didn't just come out of a box as a ready to use product - complete with eco-system. That's all still work in progress.Bitcoin is pretty well known at this stage and if it was any good Joe Soap on the street would be using it to get his money out.
Yes, speculative and store of value related transactions implicate a large proportion of transactions (amidst a growing transaction level). On the criminal activity front, see here -> LINK -> that's a misnomer.As far as I can see there are 2 main groups of people transacting in Bitcoin - those speculating and those engaged in criminal activity.
The point is that it's early doors. Volatility a plenty - no question. However, trotting out that one peak to trough is not providing the whole picture. On the whole, it's proven to be an asset which has maintained and accumulated value.Yep, that's fair, I did. But I think it demonstrates the poor current standing of Bitcoin as a store of value when it is suffering significant volatility that seems based on little more than the rumour mill at times.
Ok, so it's confirmed then. Gold is a poor store of value (as gold - in the not so distant past took a 33% nose dive).To be fair, it would probably depend on what's going on with other asset classes, if most other classes took a 50% hit, then 33% would look good. If the others were pretty stable, then of course 33% would suggest it was a poor choice as a store of value.
Ok, so it's confirmed then. Gold is a poor store of value (as gold - in the not so distant past took a 33% nose dive).
Ok, so I guess the point I'm making is that Bitcoin has every much a right to be classed as a store of value as gold does (as long as you account for the stage it is at in it's development).It was while it dropped 33% anyway, unless of course most other assets were dropping at a similar or worse rate.
Ok, so I guess the point I'm making is that Bitcoin has every much a right to be classed as a store of value as gold does (as long as you account for the stage it is at in it's development).
how about citizens that want to shield their wealth from a regime that's gone rogue (of which there are many at any given time)?
Bitcoin didn't just come out of a box as a ready to use product - complete with eco-system. That's all still work in progress.
The internet didn't unfold for years - nor will this.
Can you provide any evidence that people are using it for that? It may certainly happen in the future, but right now is there anyone in any great numbers transacting in Bitcoin except criminals & speculators?
This should answer your questions. It is all great when we live in a country that uses the Euro or Dollar but not so much for Venezuela
Why are Venezuelans seeking refuge in crypto-currencies?
As Venezuela staggers under political and economic crises, its citizens are embracing digital money.www.bbc.co.uk
Thanks for the link and although it's a solid use case it's very much an edge case - a failed, controlling regime suffering from extreme hyperinflation. I would doubt Bitcoin would continue to be used if / when Venezuela hangs up its socialist gloves.
I answer you request to provide 'any evidence'.
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