Why are electric cars so cheap to run ?

RichInSpirit

Registered User
Messages
1,185
Why are electric cars so cheap to run verses fossil fuels while electric heating is so expensive verses fossil fuel heating ?
Is there a paradox here or something i'm not seeing ?
 
One thing that springs to mind is the amount of tax on the petrol/diesel you put in your car. Home heating oil (and red diesel) is taxed at a much lower rate. IIRC, home heating oil is around 57c per litre whereas diesel at the pump is more like 1.35€ per litre. I presume the difference is mainly made up with tax.
 
One thing that springs to mind is the amount of tax on the petrol/diesel you put in your car. Home heating oil (and red diesel) is taxed at a much lower rate. IIRC, home heating oil is around 57c per litre whereas diesel at the pump is more like 1.35€ per litre. I presume the difference is mainly made up with tax.

Correct. It's tax, tax and more tax. The savings otherwise are utterly illusory.
 
...when the country changes from diesel and petrol to electric cars, tax will have to increase on electric cars to keep the revenue flowing in...
 
Electric cars are certainly more efficient than internal combustion engines which lose two thirds of the fuel energy as waste heat. But if your electricity is generated from fossil fuels, the same inefficiency is just relocated from your car to the power plant. The so-called "well to wheels" efficiency for fossil fuels is about the same for electric cars as ICEs.

As others have said, the difference is taxes. Car drivers are a captive audience for fuel taxes because up until recently there has been no alternative. This means, of course, that any rapid switchover to electric vehicles is going to have a sting in the tail that most people probably haven't thought of. The amount of motive energy used by just light vehicles (cars, vans etc.) in industrialised nations is about equal to all the energy generated as electricity currently. We would have to double the amount of electricity output to power an electric car fleet.

This poses two problems. First, where is all the extra power to come from? The obvious answer is to burn the same fossil fuels to produce it. But:
  • this does nothing to improve our dependence on the finite fossil fuel resource,
  • it does nothing to improve emissions (although it could relocate pollution out of the cities which is of some benefit),
  • we already struggle to cope with the 10% annual increase in demand for electricity for other uses -- switching over to fossil fuel plants to double the output again would probably take on the order of a hundred years even assuming fuel availability,
  • when you do the sums, renewable resources cannot currently hack this problem, at least in our neck of the woods: there is not sufficient sunlight in the British Isles to power an electric car fleet on a seasonal basis, unless backed up by months of battery storage; likewise the current grid could not cope with vastly increased wind power; ergo, we need battery technology that doesn't currently exist and even then the numbers probably don't add up,
  • and all of this only addresses light vehicles, not trucks or other heavy transport.
The second problem is how to replace the tax revenue from fossil fuels. The only possible answer to that is to tax the replacement electricity at similar levels, regardless of how it is generated. So the dirty little secret is that the current low fuel costs of electric motoring are actually paid for by taxation on ICE drivers. In the event of a rapid switchover that benefit would, perforce, evaporate.

One other possibility worth considering is that the number of vehicles of all types will go down dramatically. This is based on the notion that driverless cars will be summonable to your door at the press of a button on your phone, so you won't need to own one yourself. Needless to say, it will then become necessary to tax each journey to the hilt, to replace revenues lost elsewhere.

In short: there's no such thing as a free lunch.
 
I think a couple of the responses here are incorrect. It's not just about tax.

When you burn a fuel and use it to generate electricity, a lot of the energy is lost as waste heat. Power plants will typically convert 40-50% of the available energy (well, for gas, it's usually lower for other fuels).

Home heating is different, here the product is heat, so a lot less is wasted. Newer condensing boilers are typically around 90% efficient. This is why it is much cheaper to have a boiler than use electric heating.

Internal combustion engines are considerably less efficient than power plants, except for some very large scale engines, e.g. diesel engines on container ships.
So, even allowing for transmission and storage losses, electric vehicles still beat out ICEs in the efficiency stakes.
And it obviously allows for flexibility in energy source: thermal, wind, solar, nuclear!

For a fuller description see here: https://matter2energy.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/wells-to-wheels-electric-car-efficiency/

Also, one other thing:
we already struggle to cope with the 10% annual increase in demand for electricity for other uses
This isn't true. Electricity consumption has been in decline in Ireland for a number of years, mainly due to improved energy efficiency, see the figures from eirgrid (only cover up to 2014 unfortunately!)

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all/demand see under Energy Growth Rates
 
Demand has been on the rise since 2014 though not quite at 10%pa, there's some good info on EirGrid's projections up to 2025 here. Of particular interest is the impact data centers currently in planning or initial investigation stage could have on overall demand.
 
When you burn a fuel and use it to generate electricity, a lot of the energy is lost as waste heat. Power plants will typically convert 40-50% of the available energy (well, for gas, it's usually lower for other fuels).

That's for combined cycle gas turbines. As you say, it's lower for other fuels. It currently averages 38% for oil. My premise is based on converting the oil we use in ICEs today into electricity. The well to wheels efficiency is about the same as for the ICE. (Your article is unduly pessimistic about the W2W efficiency for ICES -- the 14% figure might be right for Canadian tar sands but it's better for conventional crude). I agree it's possible we could generate more electricity from other sources, and that would be good. However, as I said, we'd have to double our electricity output just to electrify the light vehicle fleet.

This isn't true [that electricity demand increases 10% per year]. Electricity consumption has been in decline in Ireland for a number of years, mainly due to improved energy efficiency, see the figures from eirgrid (only cover up to 2014 unfortunately!)

My apologies. That was a typo. The rate is 1% per year. This is for OECD countries, based on an estimate from the US EIA which projects 38% growth in net electricity output between 2012 and 2040. That's 1.16% annually (it's 1.9% for non-OECD countries). If we doubled the current rate of growth in the OECD, it would take 60 years to produce enough additional electricity to power the current light vehicle fleet.
 
The well to wheels efficiency is about the same as for the ICE.
Fair enough, but oil is rarely used for electricity generation now.

However, as I said, we'd have to double our electricity output just to electrify the light vehicle fleet.
Yeah, certainly won't happen overnight. But then I feel that the conversion will be a gradual process. Currently, electric cars are still too expensive for widespread adoption and have other issues. These will be addressed over time I'm sure, but cars are a large purchase, so it will take time for the fleet to be converted.. maybe not 60 years though! It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
I can see the power plants offering discounts for off peak storage Electric cars will be a way to go to store electric power off peak all year long. This will result in more power generation over a 24 hr cycle the net result will be power stations will be able to generate more power without any increasing in power plant equipment.
I would expect there efficiency and conversion of energy to power will go up less waste of power generated ,
The may even be stations for people to exchange power generated off peak ,
 
Last edited:
Night-rate discounts already serve to encourage EV owners to charge overnight. That will become even more prevalent once the public charging points are no longer free.

Grid connected storage such as the Centrica plans for Kilkenny may also play a role in dealing with supply/ demand variances.
 
The "fuel" for electric cars is free at the moment so.....

Energy Regulator has stated that must stop as it's unfair that domestic electricity customers are subsidising those with EVs. I've yet to see a date when that will happen though.
 
I switched to an i3 last January , so 12 months free so far.

I was spending about €200 per month in petrol on my previous car. So that's the first €2400 saved + another €1000 with the cheap tax.
 
Are you doing many miles per day? Any moments of "crap, mightn't have enough juice to get where I want to" ?
50 euro per week before electric car,Car is putting up more miles now OH and family using it to cut cost whenever possible,
 
Last edited:
Are you doing many miles per day? Any moments of "crap, mightn't have enough juice to get where I want to" ?

I do 38k per day during the week. Usually a bit more on the weekends.

I have a range extender if I am ever stuck , but have only used it twice unplanned. I do use it when driving from west cork do Dublin to cut the stops to 1 break of 30 minutes.
 
Thanks for all the interesting answers and points of view.
One figure/calculation I was just churning around in my head last night was say you have a 50kilowatt electric car that drives at 100kmph for an hour using the full 50kilowatt, say motorway driving. It would have used 50KWH of electricity and if you were paying for it at the meter it would be 50x€0.18 approx = €9.
Or 9 cents per kilometre. 15 cents per mile.
Not real cheap in my book.
 
Back
Top