Key Post Where do you go for the most comprehensive debt and insolvency advice?

[Brendan Burgess]

In the light of the recent overturning of a bankruptcy in the High Court, it's important for people in financial trouble to understand the different categories of debt advisor and what their limitations are. This is my understanding and I am wide open to correction and additional information.

1) A Debt Management Firm authorised as such by the Central Bank (Debt management means debt advice) Most debt managers are not PIPs
2) A Personal Insolvency Practitioner licensed by the Insolvency Service. PIPs may be authorised Debt Management Firms, but many are not. If a PIP is not authorised as a Debt Management Firm, they cannot give general debt advice - which is absurd.
3) A Full Service Firm -
These are mainly accountancy firms who have specialised in insolvency for many years. They are registered as Personal Insolvency Practitioners and are authorised to give debt advice as part of their authorisation from their institutes.

• informal deals with your creditors
• Personal Insolvency Arrangements or Debt Settlement Arrangements
• Bankruptcy

4) Voluntary groups who not charge a fee and do not need to be authorised. (e.g. MABS or IMHO) - Can't do PIAs or DSAs
5) A bankruptcy organiser (e.g. Neo Financial Solutions) which does not need any authorisation but can only advise on bankruptcy
6) An accountant or solicitor providing management as an ancillary part of their business ( I think less than 20%?)

Which is the best one to go to?

If your main problem is the mortgage on your home and some credit union or credit card debt, then one of the voluntary groups should be able to advise you and negotiate with your creditors on your behalf. If they think that a PIA or DSA is necessary, they will refer you to a PIP.

If you have multiple mortgages with different banks or large business debt, then you should go to a full service firm. In the majority of cases, they will negotiate an informal deal with your creditors and get your debt write-down. If your creditors will not agree to an informal deal, they will progress you through the PIA route and then bankruptcy if necessary.

If you already know that bankruptcy is the right solution for you, then go straight to a bankruptcy advisor. You should not go to a bankruptcy advisor for general debt advice. They are not authorised to give it, and they may be tempted to recommend the only solution which they can offer you - i.e. bankruptcy.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Debt Management Firms
Central Bank Register of Debt Management Firms(Scroll down to the end of the list)
There are only 47 firms registered so far.

The only names I recognise on the list are
Michael Dowling - who I thought was a mortgage broker.
Providence Financial Services i.e. John Lowe who is known as The Money Doctor - is also a PIP.

Personal Insolvency Practitioners
There are 139 PIPs on the [broken link removed]
The list is ordered by county which is very convenient.

Grant Thornton - has a conveyor belt approach to insolvency. Doesn't negotiate informal schemes.
McCambridge Duffy in Donegal may be the same - They have been doing UK insolvencies for years.

Full service firms
Friel Stafford Jim Stafford often answers questions on askboutmoney. You can assess his knowledge and expertise for yourself by reading some of his .


Not for profit Debt Advisors
MABS
Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation ( also has a PIP working for them but I don't think that they do PIAs)
New Beginning - tend to see Irish bankruptcy as the solution in most cases
Phoenix Group

Bankruptcy Arrangers
Steve Thatcher [broken link removed] Arranges bankruptcy in the UK A Frequent Poster on Askaboutmoney. You can assess his knowledge and expertise
Paul Carroll [broken link removed]
Ciarán Doyle [broken link removed] (A Scottish registered company) Arranges bankruptcy in Scotland. Posts on Askboutmoney under the name

 

[Steve Thatcher]

Status of advisors often mentioned in the media

Please correct me if I am wrong

Not for profit Debt Advisors
MABS
Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation ( also has a PIP working for them?)
New Beginning - tend to see Irish bankruptcy as the solution in most cases
Phoenix Group

Bankruptcy Arrangers
Steve Thatcher [broken link removed] Arranges bankruptcy in the UK
Paul Carroll [broken link removed]
Ciarán Doyle [broken link removed] (A Scottish registered company) Arranges bankruptcy in Scotland

Thanks for posting this Brendan, my website of you wish to attach it it www.irishbankrupt.ie

Steve

 

[IB2013]

Brendan – From where i’m standing the first thing anyone in financial difficulties should do is quantify the level of their indebtedness. Until you do this, you are guessing and things may in reality be better or even worse than you think.

Once you have done this, the next thing is to try to negotiate a settlement with your creditors. There are a variety of parties who will offer to negotiate on your behalf to obtain the best deal. Unfortunately as many agreements are subject to a confidentiality clause, it’s very difficult to ascertain who is actually delivering for clients and who is simply blowing smoke. However as I have said many times on the blog, you should find someone to assist you with this. Ask around and find others who have been through the process.

In the event that it is not possible to agree a settlement with your creditors, things get more complicated. If you have engaged an adviser in Ireland they will generally try to retain you as a client and direct you towards the options available within the ISI. On the other hand, this is also where the likes of ourselves come in.

Having been through the process myself I understand that there are two distinct aspects to personal bankruptcy; the Theory and the Practice. The theory of bankrupting myself in Scotland/ the UK is well known but on meeting clients their first questions usually relate to the practicalities of day-to-day life as a bankrupt, e.g. transport links to Ireland, suitable places to live, schools etc. There is a dimension to bankruptcy that cannot be covered by a textbook and like parenthood, it cannot be fully understood until you have done it yourself.

I have said it before and will say it again, if it is possible for an Irish citizen to resolve their financial difficulties whilst remaining in Ireland, it is by far the best option. However the reason people use our services is that for those who choose the route of bankruptcy, there are far better options available than the Irish system.


Ciarán (aka IB2013!!)
[broken link removed]

 

[epicaricacy]

Hi Brendan
It seems likely that most people would want to deal with one company that is capable of offering the full suite of options - rather than engaging the services of one company to seek an informal arrangement / PIA /DSA with one's creditors and then having to proceed with another to seek bankruptcy in another jurisdiction.
Seeing as you've listed individual companies - I've friends who've dealt with Anthony Joyce and co. He is a PIP, a qualified solicitor in the UK and Ireland and has a UK Insolvency partner, O'Hara & Co, who's head office is based in Bradford. Therefore, if one is experiencing serious financial distress - his company can advise you on your best course of action. The other primary advantage of this company is that they (being solicitors) can organise the sale of your assets as part of the package - often times when you're building up your COMI in the UK (if all other options haven't worked). It seems as if it's preferable to translate the asset from secured to unsecured (sell asset) prior to petitioning for bankruptcy

 

[Steven Barrett]

Debt Management Firms
Central Bank Register of Debt Management Firms(Scroll down to the end of the list)
There are only 47 firms registered so far.

It is an extremely time consuming to get regulated as a debt management firm. The Central Bank require a huge amount of paperwork and have very strict timelines on when to supply it. Due to the amount of work involved, firms who do give enough debt management advice have stayed away from it.


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi epi

Anthony Joyce and co. He is a PIP, a qualified solicitor in the UK and Ireland and has a UK Insolvency partner, O'Hara & Co, who's head office is based in Bradford.
...
Therefore, if one is experiencing serious financial distress - his company can advise you on your best course of action.

Is he authorised as a Debt Management Company or is he exempt as a solicitor? If so, he can advise you on all your options. If not, he can only do the PIP work and bankruptcy.

As an accountant myself, I might be biased. But I don't think that solicitors are well set up to do PIP work. In fact, I don't know if any solicitor has done a PIA or DSA?

 

[Steve Thatcher]

For myself, can I just say that results matter. Ask whoever you use what they have achieved, not what they have done.
For me that means 400 UK bankruptcies, more than any irish solution combined. €2.5billion written off in debt.
So it's great to talk about what people might do of course, but ultimately it's what gets done.

Steve Thatcher

 

[epicaricacy]

For myself, can I just say that results matter. Ask whoever you use what they have achieved, not what they have done.
For me that means 400 UK bankruptcies, more than any irish solution combined. €2.5billion written off in debt.
So it's great to talk about what people might do of course, but ultimately it's what gets done.

Steve Thatcher

Brendan was asking where one should go for the most 'comprehensive debt and insolvency advice' - as opposed to the total amount an insolvency specialist has got written off in UK bankruptcy.
It seems obvious that someone should approach an Irish Insolvency Company that offers the full suite of services first, especially now that Lump Sum PIAs (the Irish equivalent to the UK lump sum IVAs) are available in Ireland. In addition, many of these Irish companies e.g. Friel Stafford, Anthony Joyce, Grant Thornton etc.can arrange insolvency solutions in both Ireland and the UK.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi epi

I think that Steve's point was well worth making.

Many people are authorised but have little experience.

If you know that you want UK bankruptcy, then it's better to use someone who has a track record of it.

Of course, if you don't know what the right solution is, then a full service company or a Debt Management Company is the first place to go.

Brendan

 

[Steve Thatcher]

Brendan was asking where one should go for the most 'comprehensive debt and insolvency advice' - as opposed to the total amount an insolvency specialist has got written off in UK bankruptcy.
It seems obvious that someone should approach an Irish Insolvency Company that offers the full suite of services first, especially now that Lump Sum PIAs (the Irish equivalent to the UK lump sum IVAs) are available in Ireland. In addition, many of these Irish companies e.g. Friel Stafford, Anthony Joyce, Grant Thornton etc.can arrange insolvency solutions in both Ireland and the UK.

My point was an accumulation of what had ben said beforehand. There was a discussion about who to approach and who you could trust to deliver the correct advice. This was predicated on reports of people getting shocking advice. I fully advise on both countries solutions and as those who meet me will attest, if the UK solution is not right I tell people so and refer them on. Generally people come to me after exploring all the Irish solutions anyway. I always encourage people to look at home first. I have no intention of selling my service just for a fee. I have been giving insolvency advice for twenty plus years.
I never sell a service that I don't believe is the best for anyone I see, but I do think that debtors deserve the best advice and my point continually is that the way the "advice" market has been set up and the lack of real expertise (other than those you mention) is a real concern.Too many people are now "experts" without having the expertise to provide the solutions they peddle.

I hope that that makes my position abundantly clear.

Steve Thatcher

 

[44brendan]

Well put Steve!! A debtor should expect a professional level of advice based on all options available (UK & Irl) and with a recommendation as to which is the more appropraite option for the specific circumstances. It would appear from posters on this site who have availed of your services that you do offer such a professional service with a full awareness of the insolvency legislation in both jurisdictions.

 

[Gerry Canning]

Well put Steve!! A debtor should expect a professional level of advice based on all options available (UK & Irl) and with a recommendation as to which is the more appropraite option for the specific circumstances. It would appear from posters on this site who have availed of your services that you do offer such a professional service with a full awareness of the insolvency legislation in both jurisdictions.

+1.
I have found Steves and 44 Brendans comments educating.

 

[epicaricacy]

Steve
I mentioned reputable and experienced Irish Insolvency Specialists and state that these should be someone's first port of call (as opposed to some Irish cowboy) as they provide insolvency solutions in both jurisdictions and can offer what you can't because of your inability to complete the PIP training. (You mentioned in another thread that you couldn't complete the PIP training as you're not resident in Ireland). It seems logical that the experienced and reputable Irish companies that can provide all arrangements - including possible informal arrangements with banks and lump sum PIAs, in addition to everything you provide in the UK should be someone's first port of call. It seems illogical to consult someone who provides only a UK solution prior to contacting an Irish company that provides all the solutions. After all, you do charge 250 euro for a half hour appointment in Dublin (comparable to the Irish companies)

 

[epicaricacy]

Well put Steve!! A debtor should expect a professional level of advice based on all options available (UK & Irl) and with a recommendation as to which is the more appropraite option for the specific circumstances. It would appear from posters on this site who have availed of your services that you do offer such a professional service with a full awareness of the insolvency legislation in both jurisdictions.

As do the Irish companies I mentioned!! The debate about the efficacy of a certain person's advice was dealt with on another thread. As far as I can see - that named individual is the only person who's expertise (or lack there of) has been called into question. The topic of this discussion pertained to the company that offered the most 'comprehensive' advice as opposed to the behaviour of a certain named and shamed individual. I believe it's a little dangerous - besides it being completely inaccurate - to suggest that there is a dearth of insolvency talent in Ireland.

 

[epicaricacy]

Hi epi

I think that Steve's point was well worth making.

Many people are authorised but have little experience.

If you know that you want UK bankruptcy, then it's better to use someone who has a track record of it.

Of course, if you don't know what the right solution is, then a full service company or a Debt Management Company is the first place to go.

Brendan

Hi Brendan

I deliberately mentioned 3 reputable Irish Insolvency companies. They are all experienced in UK bankruptcy and IVAs - in addition to Irish insolvency solutions. Even if you do know what the right solution is e.g. UK bankruptcy - these companies are experienced or have UK partners such as O'Hara and CO. who are specialists in the UK system. Besides - the fees are more or less comparable. I got a quote from one of the Irish companies and from Steve T in April 2013 and they were the same (once currency differences were taken into account).

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Brendan

I deliberately mentioned 3 reputable Irish Insolvency companies. They are all experienced in UK bankruptcy and IVAs - in addition to Irish insolvency solutions. .

. In addition, many of these Irish companies e.g. Friel Stafford, Anthony Joyce, Grant Thornton etc.can arrange insolvency solutions in both Ireland and the UK.

Hi Epi

You set out one of the problems in these posts.

To the best of my knowledge, Grant Thornton does not offer to negotiate informal solutions for their clients. If you use Grant Thornton, you need to know that you want a PIA or DSA in Ireland. I am sure that they will do it very efficiently, but it's a conveyor belt model, and you won't get a huge amount of advice.

While I am sure that Anthony Joyce is a good solicitor, I am not sure that solicitors are a good place to go for financial advice. They usually understand the law, but don't really have a good view of finance.

With Steve Thatcher, you know what you get. If you know you want UK bankruptcy, he has a track record in the area.

If you don't know what you want, and you need good financial advice, I would recommend a firm like Friel Stafford or some other firm, preferably of accountants, who have a track record in the area.

 

[epicaricacy]

As I've already mentioned, Anthony Joyce has a UK partner - O'Hara and Co and they have over 25 years of experience in dealing with UK insolvency. O'Hara and Co. share an office with a firm of solicitors - which is very useful when preparing Sworn Witness statements and completing the petition for bankruptcy (as opposed to the SOA). Anthony Joyce is a qualified PIP in addition to being a solicitor. In addition to offering the UK options (which are run by O'Hara and Co.) - he has also brought people through Irish bankruptcy, has negotiated informal deals with Irish creditors etc. The financial advice he is offering is specifically to do with insolvency issues - for which he is trained and certified.