Whats wrong with being an 'A La Carte' Catholic?

I can see nothing wrong with being an 'A La Carte' Catholic? Does anyone disagree?

And is the opposite of an 'A La Carte' Catholic a 'Prix Fixe' Catholic? (Prix Fixe = Limited Menu at a fixed price)

ajapale

Here we go again.
Must be silly season.

Re: Must be silly season

landoverbaptist.org. Where the worthwhile worship. Unsaved welcome.

Check out the forum for 'False Religions and Cults: Catholics, Wiccans, Lutherans, Satanists, Mormons, and more'...

:smokin

Re: Must be silly season

Ajapale, your colleague Clubman has just locked a similar post, are you trying to emulate Horse who started the locked post. It was the biggest post that I have seen on AAM. & pages and over 1200 hits before it was moved. Question for the mods, how come the amounts of hits on the post before it was moved , were not carried over to the new site ?

Hi LA,

I must admit I stopped reading the "Church Offering" when it deviated from the original question.

emulate Horse who started post

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The honest answer is no, personally I dont like very long threads.

Question for the mods, how come the amounts of hits on the post before it was moved , were not carried over to the new site ?

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I dont understand this question.

I see nothing wrong with being an 'A La Carte' Catholic? In fact I think Its something to be proud of. Does any one disagree?

ajapale

Doesn't a la carte come at a higher price? For what it's worth I don't disagree.

In Ireland at the moment it can be quite tricky to not be a Catholic if you are unwilling to go along with the charade of pretending you are, at weddings baptisms etc.

I'm sure there are people here who've gone through the hassle of explaining to family etc that they don't intend baptising their child.

The attitude seems to be, "I don't care what you belive or how you intend to raise the child, but YOU MUST baptise it".

I'd have thought getting up on the alter and lying in this way would be a huge insult to Catholics, but they don't seem to mind. In fact they insist on it.

As long as people keep bowing to this sort of peer pressure to go along with the Sacraments to maintain the appearance, then the longer it will be before everyone can freely chose to opt in or out of religion without side effects.

E.g. It delays the day that people can send their child to any State School without having to join the list below the kids with token baptisms.

I know people who don't even believe in God, much less in the Catholic church, who have had church weddings, baptisms etc.

The church doesn't help when it tells catholics not to attend registry office weddings, and certainly not to be witnesses at such services.

I could live with a strong thriving Catholic Church full of happy devoted worshipers. But let's sort out the separation of church and state so that the rest of us can get on with our lives.

The A La Carte Catholics make that harder, which is all I have against them.

BTW this is a perfectly reasonable question which can be discussed rationally, can we please avoid nonsense about Religious Hatred, etc.

-Rd

I'd have thought getting up on the alter and lying in this way would be a huge insult to Catholics

That's one of the reasons why when I attend religious ceremonies (e.g. as a mark of respect for family, friends etc.) I don't participate in the sacraments - because in doing so I would be engaging in what the Catholic Bishops might term a "sham" and thus making a mockery of something that is very important to people who are close to me. The other reason is that I would be acting contrary to my own deeply held (atheistic) beliefs.

In relation to the issue of "sham" religious practices I would actually agree with many of the Bishops' utterances on these since they are often merely pointing out acts of hypocrisy - e.g. in the context of non practicing/believing individuals using church wedding, baptism, communion, confirmation, funeral ceremonies to suit themselves, President McAleese as a Catholic taking Protestant communion in spite of the deep theological differences between the Sacraments of the Eucharist as practiced by each denomination etc.

Conversely I would not agree with them, for example, describing my marriage (in the registry office) as flawed or invalid (as they have done recently) or their purported non recognition of state sanctioned marriages which have not received their blessing. However I acknowledge their freedom to express such opinions while reserving my right to rebut them.

Ultimately it's up to people to do what they want and, ideally, what they feel is right. If some people want to engage in sham religious practices then that's their prerogative. Many people I know, including family, do this and I consider it their business and not mine other than when it impinges on me (e.g. slight rumblings of discontent at my state rather than church marriage, having to decline the invitation to act as godfather to my brother's child etc.). However, I personally have more respect for somebody who acts in accordance with their beliefs, regardless of what these were. Curiously enough I had many Catholics, a la carte as well as devout, criticise me and my beliefs and try to bring me around to their way of thinking whereas I am generally content to leave them to their own beliefs and certainly would not try to "convert" them to atheism.

Asimov is right of course this must be silly season but anyway . .

daltonr: Your post seems to be referring to pseudo-Catholics i.e. no faith but conform as it is the path of least resistance in this state. I would define 'A La Carte' Catholic' as being a person who does hold religious beliefs however may not agree with all the churches teachings. There's a big difference. Most Catholics in this country would probably fall into this 'A La Carte' category. Isn't it all supposed to be about tolerance and forgiveness anyway?

ajapale. what's your definition of 'A La Carte' Catholic' ?

Michaelm

For the most part I'm not talking about people with absolutely no belief in God, that's just an extreme example that I'm aware of.

Of course the whole point of A la carte is that there's a range of levels. From basically committed catholics who just ignore a few of the more extreme "policies", to the people who've turned their back on the church and who only use it for key points in their lives like Weddings, Baptisms, First Communion, Confirmation etc.

I suppose it's a question of whether you are a Catholic by conscience, or by convenience.

Those who continue to participate in the charade of being catholics and who have no real interest in or committment to the church do feed anomalies like the Religion in Schools situation.

That's my only problem with them.

I think this will all work itself out fairly soon, another generation or two.

-Rd

At the risk of being shot, I might suggest that until we get a Pope more in line with the mores and morals of the 21st Century, we will continue to have the dichotomy between stated RC church policy and the "living religion" as it is practiced by the majority of the individuals who count themselves as Roman Catholics.

That sounds about right.

But even if the churches values were more inline with the man in the street, you'd still have people who avail of the sacraments out of habit or guilt, but who have no other involvement.

I think that phenomenon will reach a tipping point probably during my lifetime. There will no longer be the pressure to conform.

The influx of so many cultures and religions into Ireland will be very helpful in bringing about this change. Long may it continue, and here's hoping we let as many as possible of them stay and put down roots spread as evenly around the country as possible.

In the meantime I'd like the State to stop distinguishing between people of different religions. Particularly children of different religions.

-Rd

Of course there's nothing wrong with being an A la Carte Catholic. Just like there's nothing wrong in being a Catholic who is very rigorous in their faith or a person who has left the fold completly. At the end of the day it's for each person to live as they see fit.

The one thing I'd take issue with in some of the replies on this topic though is some peoples idea that they can automatically pick the 'fraudsters' out of a line up. Is it the way they kneel? The way they genuflect?

Even if a person has never willingly crossed the threshold of a church in their life they surely deserve the benefit of the doubt. Maybe their faith means very little to them, but having their child baptised is something they want to do. Maybe going to a wedding means more to them than we think. Then again maybe not and maybe it is all hypocrisy. But it's not for us to say that the reason someone does or doesn't go to church or receives the sacrements is right or wrong.

The Catholic Church is a very, very big tree with room for plenty of exotic looking birds. But there's only one root system holding the whole thing upright. So we might be hanging precariously from the outermost branch or sitting on a fine big branch but we're still all on the same tree if we choose to be.

The one thing I'd take issue with in some of the replies on this topic though is some peoples idea that they can automatically pick the 'fraudsters' out of a line up. Is it the way they kneel? The way they genuflect?

Who stated or insinuated this?

Even if a person has never willingly crossed the threshold of a church in their life they surely deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Yes - it would be nice if the Catholic church, for example, extended the courtesy to non believers too though and didn't, for example, describe registry offices as flawed and discourage other Catholics from attending them or participating in them . I do my best as an atheist to show respect for people who practice other beliefs and the institutions/ceremonies in which they participate without turning things into a sham. It would be nice if this was reciprocated and that state institutions/ceremonies were given the respect that they too deserve.

So we might be hanging precariously from the outermost branch or sitting on a fine big branch but we're still all on the same tree if we choose to be.

Don't forget the people who are hanging from completely different trees altogether - or those of us who have our feed planted firmly on terra firma.

E.g. It delays the day that people can send their child to any State School without having to join the list below the kids with token baptisms.

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This is over-simplistic. The choice facing any individual parent of a pre-school child today is whether to opt out of a token baptism and knowingly restrict the educational choices that will be available for their child.

The choice facing any individual parent of a pre-school child today is whether to opt out of a token baptism and knowingly restrict the educational choices that will be available for their child.

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How is this different to the point I made that was over simplistic?

As long as the number of people opting out of baptisms remains small the state can continue to ignore them and continue to allow discrimination based on religion.

When a critical mass of people opting out is reached, the pressure on others is reduced and there's a much less compelling case for favouring baptised children over unbaptised children.

To be honest I'm shocked that Europe hasn't spanked our asses for allowing this, in this day and age.

To answer the question about how to spot the frauds.
You can't. They don't have Tails or hoofs, but you can certainly tell by talking to them. Many people will openly admit to their motives when it comes to the sacraments.

-Rd

ClubMan: Surely you would concede that the Catholic hierarchy are entitled to their opinion on registry offices or whatever and are entitled to communicate that opinion to the Catholic community.

Surely you would concede that the Catholic hierarchy are entitled to their opinion on registry offices or whatever and are entitled to communicate that opinion to the Catholic community.

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They're entitled to do whatever they like. But non-catholics should be entitled to criticize them and describe their attitute as intollerant and un-christian.

We should also be entitled to point out that registry office marriages are recognised by the state, which at least does them the service of recognising them. In fact some would argue the state pays a little too much attention to a persons religion...see schools conversation earlier.

We should also be allowed to point out that a lot, if not most catholics pay no attention to these pronouncements, and are infact slightly embarrassed by them.

We should also be allowed to point out that it is completely unfair to tell people who are perhaps very devoutly religous that they should not even attend weddings in registry offices, as this will inevitably lead to some people feeling guilty about attending the weddings of their own children.

Of course whenever we do point this out we get accused of Catholic Bashing or religious hatred. (see previous thread).
When in fact we're just criticising man made rules the same as we'd criticise a government or a company.

-Rd

daltonr: I agree that you are entitled to say what you wish, and you have. I'm trying to point out that whereas an individual can be PC or indifferent on any particular issue the Catholic church is an organisation based on a set of morals and beliefs and that the churches hierarchy has an obligation to communicate those beliefs to Catholics; non-Catholics should ignore such uttering and 'A La Carte' Catholics can decide for themselves; devout Catholics will likely follow the recommendation on any such matters.

non-Catholics should ignore such uttering

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If a non-catholic wants a registry office wedding, but having one would force catholic family members to choose between their church and attending the wedding, then I don't think the non-catholics can ignore the churches pronouncement.

It doesn't matter that most sensible people will ignore the rule and attend the wedding. It's unfair to make the bride and groom uncomfortable and the atendees guilty by attaching a stigma to what is essentially a simple legal transaction. Nobody is sacrificing virgins or worshiping satan at these weddings.

Some people for the sake of their families will give into this and agree to a church service they don't want.

If non-catholics are being coerced into church sacraments because of the intollerance of that very church then we have a problem that shouldn't be ignored.

Athiests don't impact on catholics or force them to make compromises. The reverse isn't true. There aren't too many catholics having to drive for miles in rush hour to find a school because Athiests have been given preference.

I'll start ignoring the church, when it stops affecting the way I want to live my life.

-Rd