What's going on in Rome?

[Unregistered]

Do any of you have any views? The huge crowds are causing amazing scenes on television - is this religious devotion or is it something akin to the scenes that we witnessed after Princess Diana died in Paris? I'm fascinated and would like to hear anybody else's view.

 

[MargeSimpson]

I think that people have been swept up in the emotion of the whole thing. The media hasn't helped, Sky News is a joke! I also think people just want to be able to say that 'THEY WERE THERE'. I don't think much of the whole thing. I am a Catholic but I keep my head firmly screwed on!

 

[Unregistered]

Apparantly the Italian Police stopped people queuing outside the vatican from 10 pm last night - no more people will be able to get close.The Italian goverment have asked that no more people enter Rome as the over crowding is causing a huge risk.

 

[MargeSimpson]

Nobody get me wrong here, please. I am not being disrespectful.
But when we saw images of the funeral of the Ayatollah Khomeini we were quick to say that they were fanatical pilgrims. I am not saying that the people in Rome are acting the same way, as it does appear to be quite calm. But why are people going in droves to see his body??

 

[ClubMan]

Many reports were talking of the numbers in Rome as being unprecedented for a religious event but events such as the Muslim Hadj (c. 4 million pilgrims each year) and the Hindu Kumbh Mela (c. 70 million pilgrims at Kumbh Mela 2003!) regularly attract numbers of pilgrims that would easily dwarf the numbers in Rome right now.

 

[Vanilla]

Been there, got the photo

Am I the only one who thinks its a little odd to see people taking photos of the late pope?

 

[ClubMan]

No, you're not alone. I always find it strange that people who purport to believe in the spiritual aspects of religious ceremonies (e.g. Catholic sacraments such as baptism, first communion, confirmation, marriage etc.) are happy to stroll around the altar area taking still or video pictures of the goings on rather than spending some time praying or reflecting on the spiritual aspects of the ceremony. Anyway, in relation to the Pope I'm half surprised that they haven't hacked his body to pieces in anticipation of him being canonised and in preparation for the resulting JP2 relics industry kicking off.

 

[Gunnerbar]

In reply to the first post I think the the one thing that has attracted so many people to Rome to PAY respects is that the Pope seemed to be a very personable and outwardly human man who appealed to many, many people (even across the religious divide) especially those that lived in oppressive (particularly Communist) states and in the third world. He brought himself to their countries and I think many people feel that they should respect that gesture. I think all people who call themselves Catholics would appreciate the mood in Rome. I wouldn't even call myself a devout Catholic but even I can see what's happening here.

I haven't seen any Sky reports since he died and only a few documentaries on the man so I wouldn't say I was "caught up in the emotion of the whole thing" but I do feel that the world has lost a very personable, charitable and empathic man who did a lot for freedom around the world. Granted he was very conservative and could have been more progressive and he also made mistakes but I hope the new pope will be a little more liberal.

The final few years of his pontifacy were especially sad considering his health but you could see the dignity and mental and physical strenght in which he carried himself. Many people, around the world, empathised with this especially, whether it was happening in their own family or to themselves.

As regards why people find it so amazing that people would like to record the event: what's so irreverant about that if it's done with reverence. You're obviously not a Church goer.


What I think is a lot worse is that some couples will really push for a church wedding even though they may not have set foot in a church for years. Maybe it's these couple's that prance around the altar like it was a football pitch that you were talking about Clubman.

Flame proof jacket standing by!

 

[ClubMan]

I haven't seen any Sky reports since he died and only a few documentaries on the man so I wouldn't say I was "caught up in the emotion of the whole thing" but I do feel that the world has lost a very personable, charitable and empathic man who did a lot for freedom around the world. Granted he was very conservative and could have been more progressive and he also made mistakes but I hope the new pope will be a little more liberal.

I'd agree but surely anybody who professes to be a Catholic has to accept that he was always correct in matters of faith and morals whether they liked his stance or not?

What I think is a lot worse is that some couples will really push for a church wedding even though they may not have set foot in a church for years. Maybe it's these couple's that prance around the altar like it was a football pitch that you were talking about Clubman.

Yeah - that sort of thing. I have no problem with people who profess a particular faith and practice accordingly, especially when they accord me the same respect in not having any religious beliefs. However I do find atavistic "going through the motions" participation in religious ceremonies not based on any fundamental belief/faith but because it's the "done thing" quite hypocritical and demeaning/insulting to those who do have genuine beliefs. But each to their own I suppose.

 

[cuchulainn]

I agree with Both Clubman and Gunner here. I think there is a 'frenzy' to be there and while there is nothing wrong with that I think a little reflection might not go amiss. I personally woultn't mind visiting Rome later in the year and when & if I do go I will pause a moment and think of him. Whatever you think of him ( and I think he was very conservative and appointed conservative cardinals and he used Cardinal Rattinzer to close off any approaches from within the church for more liberal views - I think theres a priest in Belgium called Hans Jung (?) who stated he just could not get to see the pope because of Cardinal Rattinzer and what about the banco ambrosio affair?) In spite of this he was a very special pope and very very open to all people. I think we will be very lucky to have another pope as open in the next few years. He certainly carried out his duties as with great dignity and respect and he carried his crosses willingly. As for couples using the church to get married in and not being regular attendees, I think that using the church is fine and if they have their own faith and believe in that then its ok with me. What I do object to is couples spending months planning the actual wedding day and not putting much further thought or effort into the actual marriage. Hence some marriages are in trouble from day 2. or perhaps day 15.
There is a priest who has opinioned that they church is evolving all the time and that they days of full churches on Sundays etc might be a permanent thing of the past but that in say 100/200 hundred years the church will still be around but maybe not as we know it. I also think that teenagers who drift away from church attendance now are not necessarily leaving for good. Merely 'finding' themselves and they will return in their own good time.

 

[ClubMan]

Just for the record I was not arbitrarily criticising the people who are heading to Rome for the lying in state or the funeral and was talking about other, more general, matters above.

 

[ClubMan]

I agree with Both Clubman and Gunner here. I think there is a 'frenzy' to be there and while there is nothing wrong with that I think a little reflection might not go amiss.

Just for the record I was not arbitrarily criticising the people who are heading to Rome for the lying in state or the funeral and was talking about other, more general, matters above.

As for couples using the church to get married in and not being regular attendees, I think that using the church is fine and if they have their own faith and believe in that then its ok with me. What I do object to is couples spending months planning the actual wedding day and not putting much further thought or effort into the actual marriage. Hence some marriages are in trouble from day 2. or perhaps day 15.

Agreed - that's why I personally think it's no bad idea to test the waters by living together for a while and see how things develop/work out. But I don't see the church recommending that course of action any time soon.

I also think that teenagers who drift away from church attendance now are not necessarily leaving for good. Merely 'finding' themselves and they will return in their own good time.

Of course. Just as those who are brought up or indoctrinated with a particular faith from an early age aren't necessarily stuck with it for good either.

 

[extopia]

>> what about the banco ambrosio affair?

What about it? That was three popes ago -- Pope Paul. Many people think it led to the assasination of John Paul I, who was attempting to "clean up" the Vatican Bank. Although I suppose you could argue that JP2 didn't do much about it when he came to power.

 

[Pill boy]

>> what about the banco ambrosio affair?

What about it? That was three popes ago -- Pope Paul. Many people think it led to the assassination of John Paul I, who was attempting to "clean up" the Vatican Bank. Although I suppose you could argue that JP2 didn't do much about it when he came to power.

I think the Ambrosio affair is quite relevant. It was three popes ago, but in fairness it was only 2x years ago and in the scale of Vatican history this is an blink of an eye. I would like to see this explored more. I am one of the teenagers that went away but has returned to the church (married childern etc) but still feel a little uneasy about many aspect one of which is the secret society aspect and the Opus Dei club within a club stuff. Not nuts about anti - contraception rules (I manufacture them what does that make me) ... I know I'm a bit of point so apologies all round