What will happen when/if the PService deal is rejected?

Purple said:
The current situation (or cityation if you’re from Norn-Ireland) is akin to a family that promised the kids they would bring them to Disney Land next summer if they behaved, did their chores and were good in school. Well next summer is here but the parents have lost their jobs and the mortgage repayments have gone up and Disney Land is off the cards. The kids as a united group cried “BUT WE WANT TO GO TO DISNEYLAND, YOU SAID YOU WOULD BRING US. IT’S NOT FAIR!” The parents continue to explain, “It’s just not possible, it’s not your fault and we’re not blaming you but the money is just not there”.

The senior union officials who negotiated the deal are like the older children who, despite their tantrums, understand the reality of the situation. The problem is that their underlings are like the younger children who think if they cry and shout enough they will get their way.
There will be quite a few toys thrown out of quite a few prams over the coming months. I hope they don’t break anything important in the process.

I’m glad to see that even Jack O’Connor has, to a limited extent, grown up and accepted reality. I hope others follow suit.
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I take your point, but whats missing here is that those same parents decided to take the kids' cousins to somewhere even better for the summer (the banks!) so even thought the money isn't there for their own kids, they seem to have plenty stashed away for the cousins, no wonder they are screaming and shouting
 
doubledeb said:
I take your point, but whats missing here is that those same parents decided to take the kids' cousins to somewhere even better for the summer (the banks!) so even thought the money isn't there for their own kids, they seem to have plenty stashed away for the cousins, no wonder they are screaming and shouting
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True...but...the money is still not there.
 
becky said:
What age bracket is he?
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Liam is about 7 I'd say. For some reason he is in his communion suit and has his hand out for money.
David Begg has Jack O'Connor in a headlock now and Jack is shouting "MERCY!!!!" Teenagers eh?
 
Fair enough, but they've given enough, leave them alone now. Go elsewhere for the cuts, not the ps pay, not education and certainly not sw. All easy targets. Now go after the big boys... please..
 
doubledeb said:
Now go after the big boys... please..
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I agree the "big boys" should be targetted. However, these guys are usually well represented legally. They own groups of companies with assets given to wives/children, inter-company guarantees, off shore depsoits etc etc. I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but getting money from them will take a lot of time through the courts. Easier & quicker to cut public expenditure and raise taxes.
 
Why get the courts involved?... slap on a wealth tax... with that tax on the richest in the country it would generate circa 4bn every year...
bobs your uncle!
 
doubledeb said:
Fair enough, but they've given enough, leave them alone now. Go elsewhere for the cuts, not the ps pay, not education and certainly not sw. All easy targets. Now go after the big boys... please..
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I'm losing my place in the analogy now. But your argument is that because the parents took the cousins to somewhere better when there was money, they should still take the kids to Disney Land as promised even though they don't have money. So in effect, out of spite you want the parents to take out a loan just to apease the kids' jealousy? And look at some means of going back to the cousins to get money off them for previous favours.

No body doubts or can disagree with the big boys helping us get into the mess. Just how do we go after them though? We've a new regulator who's sticking to his guns and is taking on one of the worst of them. Tick one against going after the big boys.

We've the Gardai doing dawn raids, gathering evidence and even bringing people in for questioning. It's a slow process and the probability is that no actual law was broken, but again, tick one against going after the big boys.

It's happening, but it won't happen overnight. But there in the background is that the outgoing doesn't match the income. We have to borrow billions to pay public sector. The short term consequence of not halting that is a disaster. It's a tough call and will hit people hard, but we can't afford a PS/CS of that size or at that pay scale.

Nothing, no big boy smokescreen, no strike, no work to rule, no morality tale of people having a reduce income, not even a change of Government is going to change that one simple problem.

You're right, the wellbeing and finances 4 million people have effectively been gambled by a small few big boys. But by that virtue it isn't right that 500K (or however many PS/CS workers there are) people also hold 3.5 million people to ransom and gamble the future of everyone's wellbeing and finances.

This isn't public vs private anymore, this isn't I've suffered so you should, this is I want an economy that doesn't involve the IMF running our countryand that for the betterment of every person in the state sacrifices are going to have to be made.
 
What will happen when/if the Ps deal is rejected?

I think it will be rejected. But I don't think anything much will happen. Work-to-Rules here and there a few token defiant gestures on the part of PS workers. IMO the Government won't cut PS wages further but rather will re-jig the PAYE system at the next budget to take in whatever extra they need from all workers. I expect that there will be an election in 2011 which will see FF ousted and Greens obliterated. The PS will then get the overhaul it needs through partnership-based negotiation with the new FG/Lab Government.
 
Latrade said:
No body doubts or can disagree with the big boys helping us get into the mess. Just how do we go after them though? We've a new regulator who's sticking to his guns and is taking on one of the worst of them. Tick one against going after the big boys.
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Fraud, reckless trading etc?
If a raft of senior bankers from all the major banks were staring at 15-25 years in prison I think most people would feel a lot better about taking pay cuts and increased taxes. Throw in the developers that were in cahoots with them and any politician and senior civil servant that can be shown to have been part of the circle and it would be just peachy.
 
Purple said:
Fraud, reckless trading etc?
If a raft of senior bankers from all the major banks were staring at 15-25 years in prison I think most people would feel a lot better about taking pay cuts and increased taxes. Throw in the developers that were in cahoots with them and any politician and senior civil servant that can be shown to have been part of the circle and it would be just peachy.
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That's why I mention the Gardai investigation. If you want a conviction to stick, then you have to allow the investigation to go ahead without an pressure.

But aside from that I personally don't feel life in prison will serve anything other than out of bitter resentment. For starters, keeping one of these guys in prison for 25 years is going to cost us what: about 100K a year? Great, that's really in the public interest.

But for one thing it absolves us for any individual criticism and that's worth it's weight in Ex Bankers and their new cell mate Bubba.

Prison is for those who are a danger to society, why swell it with people who just aren't a danger to public? Why swell the overtime of the Prison Officers as these guys are going to require more security than Joe O'Rielly. Keep prison for the real criminals who don't pay their TV licence I say.
 
Purple said:
The current situation (or cityation if you’re from Norn-Ireland) is akin to a family that promised the kids they would bring them to Disney Land next summer if they behaved, did their chores and were good in school. Well next summer is here but the parents have lost their jobs and the mortgage repayments have gone up and Disney Land is off the cards. The kids as a united group cried “BUT WE WANT TO GO TO DISNEYLAND, YOU SAID YOU WOULD BRING US. IT’S NOT FAIR!” The parents continue to explain, “It’s just not possible, it’s not your fault and we’re not blaming you but the money is just not there”.

The senior union officials who negotiated the deal are like the older children who, despite their tantrums, understand the reality of the situation. The problem is that their underlings are like the younger children who think if they cry and shout enough they will get their way.
There will be quite a few toys thrown out of quite a few prams over the coming months. I hope they don’t break anything important in the process.
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Taking the child psychology analogy a little further, how likely is it that the smaller kids are likely to believe the parents again.

If the parents say "Look I know we didn't bring you to Disneyland last year but IF YOU'RE REALLY GOOD NOW we guarantee we'll bring you to at least to (say) Salthill for each of the next four years", why would the children trust them, particularly if the promise came with a mumbled disclaimer along the lines of "provided we have the money".

Fool me once........etc
 
Latrade said:
Prison is for those who are a danger to society, why swell it with people who just aren't a danger to public? Why swell the overtime of the Prison Officers as these guys are going to require more security than Joe O'Rielly. Keep prison for the real criminals who don't pay their TV licence I say.
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I started that thread on April the first. Keep them in an open prison and use their personal assets to pay for it. Take away their liberty and leave them pennyless.
 
csirl said:
Got to the 2010 Book of Estimates and compare the figures in each of the Votes with the 2009 Book of Estimates. You will find 100s of examples of programmes being cut or scaled back. Book of Estimate is on the Dept of Finance website.
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Perhaps you missed my last post, which said "Have any new Govt programmes been started over that time?"

Evidence of programmes being cut or scaled back is not evidence of staff sitting round doing nothing. So, do you have any evidence of this?
 
Latrade said:
I'm losing my place in the analogy now. But your argument is that because the parents took the cousins to somewhere better when there was money, they should still take the kids to Disney Land as promised even though they don't have money. So in effect, out of spite you want the parents to take out a loan just to apease the kids' jealousy? And look at some means of going back to the cousins to get money off them for previous favours.

What I'm saying is look after the ones first that look after all the public services, not the ones who ruined the country. Prioritise.
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If the parents say "Look I know we didn't bring you to Disneyland last year but IF YOU'RE REALLY GOOD NOW we guarantee we'll bring you to at least to (say) Salthill for each of the next four years", why would the children trust them, particularly if the promise came with a mumbled disclaimer along the lines of "provided we have the money".

Fool me once........etc[/QUOTE]

+1
 
doubledeb said:
If the parents say "Look I know we didn't bring you to Disneyland last year but IF YOU'RE REALLY GOOD NOW we guarantee we'll bring you to at least to (say) Salthill for each of the next four years", why would the children trust them, particularly if the promise came with a mumbled disclaimer along the lines of "provided we have the money".

Fool me once........etc[/QUOTE

+1
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But everything is dependent on having the money.
 
I understand that but take it from those who can afford to give it, PS have already given it twice, enough is enough.
 
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