What will happen when/if the PService deal is rejected?

latrade said:
i'm not arguing against the need for cuts, i nailed those colours to mast early on, they have to be made. It doesn't mean i can't sympathise with those who face cuts or even feel that the portraying them all as lazy, workshy jobsworths is an incorrect generalisation.
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Latrade said:
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But surely that was the point under discussion: the two teachers who decided to stop the activities
?

The point I was making was although it was said in the post that there was "uproar",I heard no such thing in any media whatsoever.
The second point I made was that they only stopped their volunteer work when they no longer had their ego massaged /and or paycuts etc.
The point being they were happy to do so once their terms and conditions were not affected,now that they have been they no longer want to do it ,so much for caring for the kids..


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In the same way we have to trust your example of your sister with the information you provided, we have to take the same view with this example of two teachers who've put a lot in for no extra pay (as far as I'm aware with friends it isn't paid work and is voluntary through work...though the schools in some cases insist it goes ahead or atleast put pressure on teachers to form these groups) and have decided to stop doing the extra stuff.
I have never said the two in the post are paid,I dont doubt that they are not.

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The ultimate point again being that there are some who do the minimum and reap the benefits in all areas and all sectors, but there are many in all areas and all sectors who do the extra and end up getting penalised on the basis of the minority.

This happens when its said that they have sacrificed so much for the kids,"going for a pint with the missus"," having time to do little jobs around the house"..
There is very hard to believe and therfore is challanged,by giving examples of how if it quacks like a duck etc..

I
Code: 
'm not arguing against the need for cuts, I nailed those colours to mast early on, they have to be made. It doesn't mean I can't sympathise with those who face cuts or even feel that the portraying them all as lazy, workshy jobsworths is an incorrect generalisation.
Im not arguing against the need for cuts either.
We have to face the fact that teachers have it good.I use my sisters lifestyle as an example.They are well paid,they do a lot less hours per week work than any other profession,they have more holidays than the rest of us,they have the ability to earn extra income,ie grinds and after school classes(PAID FOR)

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The example given of the two teachers, I can fully sympathise with how they must be feeling especially if it's assumed that they enjoy and reap the same as the example of your sister. And that's it.


I do not sympathize at all with them,like I said earlier if ,as they consistently claim ,they really cared about the kids,they would not stop doing voluntary work.
Just like many others who do voluntary work who have no jobs!
I do not sympathize with teachers during a critical time to go on strike and will not make up those days.
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And that's where we differ. We take your example at face value and agree it's an pleasant and nice lifestyle your sister has, but we don't take the other example at face value and feel it deserves more scrutiny. Ho hum I guess.

For you they're all living the pleasant life of your sister and for me that's not representative of the majority.

For you their decision to quit doing the extra work was on the basis of money, for me it goes deeper and has as much to do with your view they're all lazy living in luxury despite all the extra unpaid effort they've put in over the years not being acknowledged by us or their employer.

As I said, the cuts have to be made, that's the reality. But I think I'm human enough to not demonise every working in the PS/CS on the basis they are concerned about their future nor that there is a disproportionate impact on the lower paid. I accept that there's to be some collateral damage in these cuts, but I'm not going to take delight in it, I'm not going to give the impression they deserve it in some way.
 
A post is challenged with an opposing view,backed up by personal experience and/or evidence of same..What a revelation...
Would have thought that this is what mature debate is about.

Every post has opposing views, and its a bit like a debate, except some don't want to hear the others views.
Or take the moral highground,to the level of telling others that they,themselves are human enough not to be demonic,and of course they don't take delight in the collateral damage.
Naturally implying that the other does..

So lets take the post at face value;
I take the post about the two teachers at face value and agree they are overworked and underpaid,should stop their voluntary work,have more time to do little jobs around the house,go for a pint with the missus,and of course there is uproar when they decide to stop the voluntary work..
Heres how the debate would look..
Ah the poor things, thats terrible..They should do less hours,get more money, definitely no more voluntary work,please God let them have time to do little jobs around the house and bring ,the missus out for a pint.
No way are they withdrawing their services due to paycuts,bless them for all the extra unpaid effort they've put in over the years,and not even being acknowledged by us or their employer.

Now if someone could just direct me to a site where I can post on where no one will challenge my views ...ho hum..
 
So lets take the post at face value;
I take the post about the two teachers at face value and agree they are overworked and underpaid,should stop their voluntary work


OK , let's take my opening post at face value .

I challenge you to outline where I said that the two teachers in question were " overworked and underpaid " , nor did I state that they should "stop their voluntary work " - I said that it was sad but that is what's happening out there and I understood why they were doing it .

I do appreciate that you strongly feel that your sister is underworked and overpaid which unfortunately has coloured your view of teachers however as I have pointed out before the terms and conditions she enjoys were signed up to by her employer.

Perhaps it might have been an idea to have dwelt a little more on the contents of my post before adapting it to fit your arguments ?
 
Where have I said you said the teachers were overworked and underpaid?
Where have I said you said they should stop their voluntary work?
I have never said you said either of the above.

The nub of my point is that as you just posted above,my sister enjoys the Terms and conditions of her job.

That is where we differ, she has a job for life, she gets to finish much earlier than most employees,she gets a ridiculous amount of time off,she has loads of time to do little jobs around her house/s,she not only has another house,but has the time to go there for the whole summer/easter/Christmas.She cannot be sacked.etc etc.

So heres where you may have dwelt a little longer on the contents of my post!

She ,unlike the two teachers you mention, enjoys having all this, and is humble enough to acknowledge this..and is very thankful for her job .

Some people will never be happy no matter how much they get..some people then get greedy..Thankfully my sister recognizes how lucky she is,which I must say is a much more attractive trait than consistent moaning, when you have it good..
 
thedaras said:
Where have I said you said the teachers were overworked and underpaid?
Where have I said you said they should stop their voluntary work?
I have never said you said either of the above.

The nub of my point is that as you just posted above,my sister enjoys the Terms and conditions of her job.

That is where we differ, she has a job for life, she gets to finish much earlier than most employees,she gets a ridiculous amount of time off,she has loads of time to do little jobs around her house/s,she not only has another house,but has the time to go there for the whole summer/easter/Christmas.She cannot be sacked.etc etc.

So heres where you may have dwelt a little longer on the contents of my post!

She ,unlike the two teachers you mention, enjoys having all this, and is humble enough to acknowledge this..and is very thankful for her job .

Some people will never be happy no matter how much they get..some people then get greedy..Thankfully my sister recognizes how lucky she is,which I must say is a much more attractive trait than consistent moaning, when you have it good..
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Nonsense !

In your post yesterday you stated and I quote " I take the post about the two teachers at face value and agree they are overworked and underpaid,should stop their voluntary work" etc.

You call that taking my post at "face value" , I never said that teachers were underpaid , overworked or should cease voluntary work.
 
Fiction: The prime cause of the destruction of this economy was/is the global banking crisis
Fact: Ultimate responsibility for the destruction of this economy lies at the door of Fianna Fail - who gleefully capitulated to demands of powerful interest groups, including bankers, developers and public sector unions


B][B]Fiction: Most public servants are low paid
Fact: Public servants are (and have been for years) paid more than their private sector equivalents
[

Fiction: Most public servants sought employment in the public service, not as means to an end, but to serve the greater good, whilst most other people sought to chase higher earnings in the private sector
Fact: Most people will seek employment that suits their skills, interests and earning aspirations - regardless of the sector

Fiction Teachers are a noble race of people, driven by a great desire to educate the youth of this country - and consistently dedicate unpaid hours to this higher calling
Fact Most teachers are keen to do a good job, many of whom were attracted to teaching by the generous renumeration and the short hours and long holidays - with very, very few dedicating any unpaid time to their charges

Fiction Most public servants participate in performance management, and can disciplined or sacked for consistent poor performance or gross misconduct
Fact It is easier to freeze a snowball in hell than to effectively discipline a public servant, especially teachers - when I think of some of the morons that thought me and my children

Fiction: There is a vicious and unfounded anti PS campaign underway, whilst the real culprits are getting away scot free
Fact:The PS was bloated and inefficient before the economic crisis - it needed to be radically reformed at least 20 years ago. Tax revenues have fallen from c.€50 billion to c.€30billion, and the PS pay-bill costs c.€20billion. We absolutely have to shrink the size of the PS to fit the new reality - fact!!
 
#291
13-05-2010, 09:28 AM
Deiseblue
Frequent Poster

Posts: 169

Let's see how I drew my conclusions.

Deiseblue;The point I made was that due to anger , bitterness and disillusionment two teacher friends of mine had decided to withdraw from after hours voluntary work with school soccer teams , I also suggested that other teachers of my acquaintance were considering following the same path , I did say that it was sad but that is the reality out there.
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Hello...what else would cause this anger , bitterness and disillusionment??
If its not money??
Once again like Ive stated several times, you said this was the cause of their withdrawal,
so they are angry at what exactly,bitter at what exactly and disillusioned at what exactly..
The fact that their pay is cut is the blindingly obvious answer.
The clue is in this; they did not withdraw their services until their pay was affected.
What part of that do you not get?
 
Complainer said:
Not true.
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So out of all the things I have posted you point to one thing ,which you say is not true.
Good to know you don't disagree with the other points.

The reality is that it is almost impossible for a teacher to be sacked.
The reality is that unlike some of the teachers that I know,who are really glad of a great job,with security, pension,very short working hours fantastic holidays, plenty of time to do little jobs around the house,go for pints,etc,they are actually satisfied and happy to do this job.

They are grateful to have all of the above,and are quite embarrassed about those who are greedy and try to give the impression that teachers are martyrs to the cause.

Those who do this are putting a spotlight on how good they really have it.

Teachers that I know, wouldn't dream of pulling out of voluntary services, wouldn't moan consistently about how difficult their job is etc,they get on with what they know is a good thing,and wish those who try to make it look otherwise would stop doing so..because they know we are not stupid..
 
Complainer said:
Just FYI - Putting 'Fact' in bold in front of the text doesn't actually make it true.
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Really - in my opinion they are facts, based on experiences and observations over several decades, or perhaps those dozy teachers I encountered were figments of my imagination......
 
Complainer said:
Facts aren't matters of anyone's opinion - they are (or are not) facts.
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Who decides something represented as a fact is the 'truth', let me guess, a person or people, which of course brings subjetivity into play. So, in my (well informed opinion) the facts I have stated are a fair and reasonable representation of reality. Now, if you would care to refrain from playing word games - you might perhaps provide 'factual' rebuttals to the points I have made....
 
thedaras said:
#291
13-05-2010, 09:28 AM
Deiseblue
Frequent Poster

Posts: 169

Let's see how I drew my conclusions.



Hello...what else would cause this anger , bitterness and disillusionment??
If its not money??
Once again like Ive stated several times, you said this was the cause of their withdrawal,
so they are angry at what exactly,bitter at what exactly and disillusioned at what exactly..
The fact that their pay is cut is the blindingly obvious answer.
The clue is in this; they did not withdraw their services until their pay was affected.
What part of that do you not get?
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And again you've neatly sidestepped my point.

You referenced my post , suggested that you were taking it at " face value " and stated that I suggested that the two teachers in question were overworked , underpaid and further stated that I suggested that they should were right to give up the voluntary work - as I say absolute and utter nonsense on your part.

You are merely misquoting me for your own ends.

Of course the teachers are entitled to be angry,bitter and disillusioned about two unilateral pay cuts , would'nt you be ?

Of course they feel undervalued and given the rather slewed view of the job they do by the media and by some members of the public as I said I can see their point of view
 
DonDub said:
Who decides something represented as a fact is the 'truth', let me guess, a person or people, which of course brings subjetivity into play. So, in my (well informed opinion) the facts I have stated are a fair and reasonable representation of reality. Now, if you would care to refrain from playing word games - you might perhaps provide 'factual' rebuttals to the points I have made....
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Merriam Webster seems to have a fairly definition of fact to yours - see
[broken link removed]

Unfortunately, if I found it necessary to provide factual rebuttals to all the nonsense posted on AAM about public services and public sector, it would be a full time job.
 
Complainer said:
Merriam Webster seems to have a fairly definition of fact to yours - see
[broken link removed]

Unfortunately, if I found it necessary to provide factual rebuttals to all the nonsense posted on AAM about public services and public sector, it would be a full time job.
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Nice dodge...avoid getting into a real debate...blah,blah,blah....
 
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