What will happen when/if the PService deal is rejected?

[Deiseblue]

So the lesson that the Irish government want us to pass on to our children is -
get a job in the Public Sector,
get a job in the bank,
get a job in the ESB

Hardly.

The glaring difference being that the PS suffered substantial pay cuts whereas the Banks and the ESB paid the first tranche of the National Wage Agreement.

Anybody with a modicum of sense would take up employment in the Banks as despite playing a major part in the destruction of our economy they will always be bailed out by the Government and the taxpayer !

 

[Mpsox]

The big difference between public and private sector is that in the private sector, reduced revenue is generally a sign of reduced demand. In the public sector, there is no such link, and indeed in some cases, less revenue means higher demand for services.

The services still need to be provided.

In the private sector, reduced revenue can also be a case of customers wanting better deals and demanding price cuts, as opposed to reduced demand.

You're correct in that in some areas in the public sector less revenue may mean more demand for services (eg social welfare) but there are plenty of areas in the public sector where demand has fallen from peak times, eg new car registration, planning offices. Some of the non-specialised staff in those areas perhaps could have been redeployed. Regardless, increased demand is an arguement for better resourcing, it's not in itself an arguement to maintain salaries

 

[thedaras]

Would it be that easy though to get the staff whose services are not as in demand to move to another department?

 

[Firefly]

The services still need to be provided.

+1

but....from a previous poster

"....the Irish economy just doesn't have the money to keep paying you at the rates we were. It's as simple as that."

 

[cork]

Some public servants are living in the land of make believe. They think everybody else got the benefit of the celtic tiger. They think they are hard done by.

That said - I think that they will vote for the Croke Park deal.

Eamon Gilmore can't even express an openion on the Croke Park deal for fear of ofending his union comrades.

 

[Purple]

Some public servants are living in the land of make believe. They think everybody else got the benefit of the celtic tiger. They think they are hard done by.

Yes, some of them do but most of them, if they think about it, realise that this is not the case and while some sectors did very well indeed on average the public sector did better than the private sector.
On the other hand some people in the private sector think that all public sector employees work very short hours, have a fantastic pension and enjoy very long holidays. They are equally wrong; some of the PS enjoy such pay and conditions but most don't.

If the Croke Park deal is accepted then I don't think any reasonable person could say that the Public Sector, as a group, have not done their part and taken at least their share of the pain. I’m sure PS employees will continue to moan and complain and rightly so; they have a lot to moan and complain about.

 

[Deiseblue]

Unfortunately for the public I think the justified moaning you speak of is going to have a rather drastic effect on public services.
I have talked to teachers,guards and nurses who have told me that morale is at an all time low and that they intend to do their job but have no intention of going the further mile as they have gladly done in the past.

 

[ashambles]

... have no intention of going the further mile as they have gladly done in the past.

Well I suppose we'll just have to get used to our public services not giving it 110% (120%?), I'm not sure how we can prepare ourselves for such a bewildering event. Counselling perhaps?

 

[Deiseblue]

Well I suppose we'll just have to get used to our public services not giving it 110% (120%?), I'm not sure how we can prepare ourselves for such a bewildering event. Counselling perhaps?

Let me give an examplle to clarify my comments.

Two teachers who work in the same school are friends of mine , post work they coach and manage the school soccer team who play in inter schools tournaments , they also do the same for a school based under age team who compete in the local junior league playing on Saturdays and training on Wednesdays.

They have now decided that they have better things to be doing with their free time and have told the parents that if the teams are to continue then volunteers to pick up the slack will have to be found.

This has caused absolute uproar !

Tough on the kids I know but that is the level of anger out there.

 

[Purple]

Let me give an examplle to clarify my comments.

Two teachers who work in the same school are friends of mine , post work they coach and manage the school soccer team who play in inter schools tournaments , they also do the same for a school based under age team who compete in the local junior league playing on Saturdays and training on Wednesdays.

They have now decided that they have better things to be doing with their free time and have told the parents that if the teams are to continue then volunteers to pick up the slack will have to be found.

This has caused absolute uproar !

Tough on the kids I know but that is the level of anger out there.

I really don't understand why a teacher would do that. I know many GAA coaches are teachers and as far as I know they are not giving that up.

 

[Deiseblue]

I really don't understand why a teacher would do that. I know many GAA coaches are teachers and as far as I know they are not giving that up.

In fairness to the two teachers involved they have done it for over 20 years and are just so disillusioned at the moment that their hearts just are not in it and feel that it's now up to the parents to lend a hand.

I also play 5 a side with a number of teachers who tell me that they are considering either doing the same or cutting down the number of hours they contribute , this crosses both codes - GAA and soccer.

 

[Caveat]

They have now decided that they have better things to be doing with their free time...

Ah so it's just bitterness then? "We'll show them" stuff?

 

[thedaras]

In fairness to the two teachers involved they have done it for over 20 years and are just so disillusioned at the moment that their hearts just are not in it and feel that it's now up to the parents to lend a hand.

I also play 5 a side with a number of teachers who tell me that they are considering either doing the same or cutting down the number of hours they contribute , this crosses both codes - GAA and soccer.

The logical conclusion of what you say about the two teachers involved is that they were not doing it for the love of their students in the first place,which in fairness thats what most of them claim,but rather were doing it because they were being well paid,now that they feel they are not as well paid they couldn't be bothered.nice..

The same goes for the teachers who went on strike during the year, especially those teachers who had stressed leaving cert students,due to missing school on these days, the teachers didn't bother to make up that time to their much cared for students!!

You say it caused absoloute uproar? By who? usually we hear these types of things(absolute uproar) on Joe Duffy,I havnt heard any parents either on the radio /tv or in fact any media complaining of teachers giving up their voluntary work..

Either way,this can easily be solved, by parents doing this instead,many of the parents will now be unemployed and very happy to do this..

Most areas have a locall Gaa club anyway ,the same goes for soccer/rugby clubs and its the parents who run those teams,maybe the children of the teachers you speak of ,could have children in one of those voluntary run clubs.
My husband runs a local team ,on a voluntary basis,and funnily enough there are kids there whose parents are teachers..
Would the teachers be as quick to remove their kids from all clubs/teams that are run on a voluntary basis?

Maybe we should all give up doing voluntary work,,due to the fact that we are disillusioned,but I would think most people would not abandon the kids and would continue to do this..

The school my kids attend do have lots of after school activity's,but all are paid for by the parents.
I have four children, aged from early 20s to ten,that is a lot of school years experience, never not once have I had the children in any activity's run by the teachers that didn't involve me paying for it..I could count on one hand the amount of time any of the teachers spent any extra time with any of the kids for free..

Historically Gaa etc are run on a voluntary basis..And usually those who volunteer to get involved do so because they have a passion for it.

MY sister is a teacher, she has such a great life, guaranteed job/pension,works from 8.55 until 2.30 has so much time off during the year,plus she has all of July and August off.She has a house in France that she swans off to for the summer,gives grinds which is a nice extra income,these are things that most of us cannot do..

To sum up,there may well be some students who avail of the schools GAA and soccer facilities but I for one cant recall a time when it was the students looking to form this type of club ,but rather it was the teacher who came looking for students to get involved..
If your two friends are no longer interested,I would say they should stop doing it as this is not good for our precious children.

 

[Deiseblue]

Absolutely.

A combination of anger , disillusionment and bitterness.

Allied perhaps to a sense that the thousands of voluntary hours they have contributed have gone unrecognised in the rush to portray them as pariahs who do the bare minimuml to earn their wages.
Thedaras

The two men in question are in their fifties and have been in charge of the two teams I alluded to for over twenty years , both teams were in existence prior to their employment - does it really matter on what basis the school teaam started as long as it's an outlet for the kids ?

I can quite understand why they have given it up , their pay has been unilaterally cut , their voluntary contributions are unappreciated/unrecognised and yes they are angry , time to do those little jobs around the house and perhaps to get out for a few pints with the missus on a wednesday night ! - as you say time for the parents to give a hand.

You're right , your sister has a great job - swanning of to France ( the cheek of her ) , I'm nearly as envious of her as you obviously are !

 

[Staples]

I suspect you haven't used taxcalc.eu to support your view that you're down 20%,.

Curiously, you're right. I've made the obvious mistake of comparing current payslips against the old ones, taking account of any other relevant factors that may have affected the bottom line. I've been doing this for years, now. Silly me.

Exaggerating the severity of the cuts only lessens sympathy for what was genuinely a substantial pay cut.

I'm neither exaggerating nor looking for sympathy. (This wouldn't exactly be the forum for the latter.) I'm simply trying to articulate the level of "pain" already endured by me and others like me in the (seemingly forlorn) hope that it might encourage an informed debate.

 

[Purple]

+1 on thedaras post; my kids do plenty of after school activities run by teachers. All of them charge a considerable amount for doing so.

 

[Purple]

Absolutely.

A combination of anger , disillusionment and bitterness.

I've done plenty of voluntary work over the years, maybe not thousands but certainly over a 1000. As it is voluntary and not directly related to my job I don't seek to get some sort of indirect payment for it... otherwise it wouldn't really be voluntary, would it?

Allied perhaps to a sense that the thousands of voluntary hours they have contributed have gone unrecognised in the rush to portray them as pariahs who do little or nothing to earn their wages.

We have the best paid teachers in the OECD. Only Greece has a shorter school year. It can be a stressful job but the very long holidays, short hours, good pension, paid sick leave, career breaks and (still) very high pay should at least make up for that.

 

[Staples]

"....the Irish economy just doesn't have the money to keep paying you at the rates we were. It's as simple as that."

But it's not as simple as that. The Government doesn't have the money to meet all its current public expenditure committments, of which pay is just one (albeit a sizeable one). Welfare makes up another huge proportion with programme expenditure (principally health) accounting for the rest.

If it's a good idea, therefore, to slash people's pay simply because you don't have the money, one could argue that it's an equally good idea to slash social welfare payments and withdraw whay might otherwise be regarded as essential public services. Equally, one could argue that we should let the banks fail "because we haven't got the money to save them. It's as simple as that".

I would agree that in an era of tight resources, tough choices have to be made but there comes a point at which it becomes unreasonable to further tap into any single area of expenditure. I would contend that we've well reached that point.

Perhaps the money that can somehow be "found" to support failed entities like Anglo and Nationwide should be put to better use with a consequential relief of more normal aspects of public expenditure.

 

[thedaras]

Absolutely.

A combination of anger , disillusionment and bitterness.

Allied perhaps to a sense that the thousands of voluntary hours they have contributed have gone unrecognised in the rush to portray them as pariahs who do the bare minimuml to earn their wages.
Thedaras

The two men in question are in their fifties and have been in charge of the two teams I alluded to for over twenty years , both teams were in existence prior to their employment - does it really matter on what basis the school teaam started as long as it's an outlet for the kids ?

I can quite understand why they have given it up , their pay has been unilaterally cut , their voluntary contributions are unappreciated/unrecognised and yes they are angry , time to do those little jobs around the house and perhaps to get out for a few pints with the missus on a wednesday night ! - as you say time for the parents to give a hand.

You're right , your sister has a great job - swanning of to France ( the cheek of her ) , I'm nearly as envious of her as you obviously are !

Like I said they were obviously happy with their pay and conditions for the last 20 years then..thanks for clarifying that..
The point about my sister is that she can do all this,go to France for the whole summer, afford a second house and the upkeep of same all on a teachers wage..
Oh and she on her teachers hours also has more spare time than anyone else in the family to do little jobs around the house,that should be houses as she has two..

 

[ashambles]

taking account of any other relevant factors that may have affected the bottom line. I've been doing this for years, now. Silly me.

Surely the only "relevant factors" in claiming there's been a 20% net decrease in pay due to government intervention, are tax, levies and pay cuts. In some cases hours and overtime could be down but you weren't claiming that.

Forget about your payslips which we clearly can't and don't want to see. You may as well tell us you've a secret document which proves the earth is flat.

However the paycuts and levies are well known so if you give us a salary level that would be down by about 20% net over 18 months then we can see if particular pay grades have somehow been hit much harder than the average ones. If it's just the lads on 200k then to be honest that's fine.