What is the squeezed middle?

Leo said:
Everything?

Almost all moderate to advanced technology coming out of China is down to their theft of IP from western nations. Their ability to produce inferior and unreliable replicas is hardly something to aspire to.
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They can produce high quality items as well but the basic point that they are not innovators remains true.
 
Purple said:
They can produce high quality items as well but the basic point that they are not innovators remains true.
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Even when they do start to innovate, it will only be because the chinese can now keep their gains. In the past, good ole communism put paid to that.
 
Leo said:
Everything
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Dont take everything too literal.

Leo said:
Their ability to produce inferior and unreliable replicas is hardly something to aspire to.
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I was talking tongue in cheek. I was asked to identify ONE technological innovation, I did. And subsequently asked to provide more examples, which I did. Then I was asked to provide more, on the basis that nothing in the Argos catalogue was made in Russia!
I mean, c'mon, where would it have ended?
 
TheBigShort said:
Its crushing on income of €10,000. You didnt provide the detail of the basic income before now!!
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Post 115 on Page 6



The 10k figure just popped into my head just like the 33% figure popped into yours. I would defer to the Dept Finance to work out the break-even point.


So, a 3rd time, If people get only a basic income but get to keep 2/3s of everything they earn with no limits, how is this disincentivising thousands from bothering to enter the workforce?
 

The only innovations you provided related to the arms race and space race Russia had with the US. All the innovations were state sponsored military innovations. Was mankind advanced? I agree to cede yes on that partially - some good probably did come out of it, but it was a by-product of a military campaign. The Argos catalog was tongue in cheek, but the fact remains that I don't know of a single item that consumers consume around the world today that came out of Russia from post WWII to 1989. Not one. Why? Why didn't someone develop something commercial?
 
Firefly said:
Post 115 on Page 6
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You talk about a basic income but didnt provide detail of how much.

Firefly said:
So, a 3rd time, If people get only a basic income but get to keep 2/3s of everything they earn with no limits, how is this disincentivising thousands from bothering to enter the workforce?
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Its not. I never said it was. I said if you impose a 33% tax on a income of €10,000 that that would act as a disincentive.
Thereafter you applied an unidentified amount (until today) of basic income, to which I replied, that in principle I didnt disagree!!
 

Thanks for clarifying. I also cannot see how a basic income and a flat rate of tax (amount and % unknown) would act as a disincentive for housands from bothering to enter the workforce.
 
Firefly said:
The only innovations you provided related to the arms race and space race Russia had with the US.
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You only asked to provide one!!

Firefly said:
I don't know of a single item that consumers consume around the world today that came out of Russia from post WWII to 1989. Not one. Why? Why didn't someone develop something commercial?
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Perhaps they were crap at making stuff? What is the point here? Do you think I am supporter of the Soviet regime? On what basis would you think that? The Soviet Union collapsed in upon itself and was a failed economic model. But not because of socialism, but because of a State controlled command economy. That is not socialism! Just because it says on tin that it is socialist, does not mean it is socialist. No more than Ireland is free market economy. Just because our political elite tell you we live in a free market economy, doesnt mean it is a free market economy. Try buy a car in Germany and bring it here and see how 'free' the market economy is.

If you want to know, I am a supporter of capitalising on the resources of the earth to maximum potential as long as it is done in an ethically (just rewards for fruit of labour), environmentally efficient and sustainable way.
In other words, capitalism is an essential step to achieving a socialist society (note, not a State controlled command economy).
 
TheBigShort said:
I suspect that you are mixing up a socialist society (Marx) with State control under a Socialist authority (USSR, China, etc).
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TheBigShort said:
Dont you know everything in Argos is manufactured in that other socialist republic, China!
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So we have socialist society, Socialist authority and socialist republic. See how confusing that can be?


In any case, the following from Wikipedia is quite interesting. It ties into the recent progress of the Chinese in the export market. Before China "opened up" didn't most stuff come from Taiwan?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform

Chinese economy prior to reform[edit]
The economy was heavily disrupted by the war against Japan and the Chinese Civil War from 1937 to 1949, after which the victorious communists installed a planned economy.[4][not in citation given] Afterwards, the economy largely stagnated[citation needed] and was disrupted by the Great Leap Forward famine which killed between 30 and 40 million people, and the purges of the Cultural Revolution further disrupted the economy.[citation needed] Urban Chinese citizens experienced virtually no increase in living standards from 1957 onwards, and rural Chinese had no better living standards in the 1970s than the 1930s.[7][not in citation given] One study noted that average pay levels in the catering sector exceeded wages in higher education.[8][relevant? – discuss]

The economic performance of the People's Republic of China was poor in comparison with other East Asian countries, such as Japan, South Korea and rival Chiang Kai-shek's Republic of China. [according to whom?] The economy was riddled with huge inefficiencies and malinvestments, and with Mao's death, the Communist Party of China (CPC) leadership turned to market-oriented reforms to salvage the failing economy.[9]

Economic reforms introducing market principles began in 1978 and were carried out in two stages. The first stage, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, involved the decollectivization of agriculture, the opening up of the country to foreign investment, and permission for entrepreneurs to start businesses. However, most industry remained state-owned. The second stage of reform, in the late 1980s and 1990s, involved the privatization and contracting out of much state-owned industry and the lifting of price controls, protectionist policies, and regulations, although state monopolies in sectors such as banking and petroleum remained. The private sector grew remarkably, accounting for as much as 70 percent of China gross domestic product by 2005.[5] From 1978 until 2013, unprecedented growth occurred, with the economy increasing by 9.5% a year. The conservative Hu-Wen Administration more heavily regulated and controlled the economy after 2005, reversing some reforms.[6]
 
Some interesting CSO info on average earnings:

2015 average earnings = 36,519, very stable during 2008-2015.

Average annual earnings were €45,075 for full-time employees in 2015 while part-time employees earned €16,332 on average in the year.
 

If the CSO tracking of figures show no change in earnings during this period, I am thinking there's a flaw in how they track the numbers. Or do you mean that by 2015 earnings had been restored to 2008 levels?
 
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2015/


Average annual earnings €36,519 in 2015

Average annual earnings for all employees, including regular, overtime and irregular earnings, were €36,519 in 2015, an increase of 1.2% from 2014. Average annual earnings were €45,075 for full-time employees in 2015 while part-time employees earned €16,332 on average in the year. See figure 5 and table 5.

Average annual earnings over the period 2008 to 2015 have remained relatively stable, dropping slightly from €36,792 in 2008 to €36,519 in 2015. There was a small rise in average annual earnings in 2009 followed by decreases in 2010 and 2011, to leave average annual earnings at €35,915 in 2011, the lowest level over the time period 2008 to 2015. Very small changes in 2012, 2013 and 2014 were followed by a rise of 1.2% in 2015 to bring average annual earnings to €36,519.

Average annual earnings for full-time employees increased 0.4% in 2009 to €44,346. It decreased in 2010 and 2011 to €44,062, the lowest level in the series. Since 2011 it has increased each year and now stands at €45,075 in 2015, 2.1% higher than the 2008 level.

Average annual earnings for part-time employees increased from €15,523 to €16,078 in 2009, remained quite static from 2010 to 2014 before increasing 2.0% to €16,332 in 2015, 5.2% higher than average annual earnings for part-time employees in 2008. See figure 5 and table 5.
 
Purple said:
The French revolution was inspired by many people but Rousseau more than any other. Catherine the Great financed him for much of his life. The great philosophical thinking which lead to the revolution died with it.
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....................
Come on now Purple !
You are far too well read !
I have nuff issues , so I will avoid philosophy ! my (modern) brain couldn,t cope !
 
TheBigShort said:
The squeezed middle just voted for Trump, in my opinion.
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Not just you...

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/e...you-failed-to-account-for-the-squeezed-middle

I think if all you are focused on is paying less tax, then you might not really have any concept of what the squeezed middle is.

For me the squeezed middle are people who would have considered themselves to have a good wage, middle class perhaps, but now see their standard of living falling dramatically and also their financial security.


http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/d...nd-remains-a-hugely-unequal-society-1.2766053

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/how-unequal-is-ireland-1.2105668

But if you are not aware of this, perhaps you're far enough above it not to be effected by it. Then playing Tax is probably all you are concerned about.
 
TheBigShort said:
The squeezed middle just voted for Trump, in my opinion.
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I agree with that but if they think those industrial jobs are coming back they are sorely mistaken. As for the leader in charge...he won't do much for them either!
 
TheBigShort said:
The squeezed middle just voted for Trump, in my opinion.
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I think it was all about male white supremacy and abortion. Nobody is stupid enough to think a billionaire who never got his hands dirty in his life is going to be a champion of the rust belt disaffected.
All the religious conservatives, and there's lots of them and they turn out to vote, vote on the abortion issue.
Every misogynist voted for Trump.
Evert racist voted for Trump.
 
Net Wealth figures are a totally BS way of measuring poverty and living standards.
If I have an income of €75'000, savings of €50'000 but am in negative equity on my home to the tune of €200'000 then I have less net wealth that a subsistence farmer in Southern Sudan.
TASC know this but they are a Left Wing Trade Union propaganda outfit with a political agenda which is willing to misrepresent the truth on order to further that agenda. The Irish Times also know better but for the same reasons are willing to do the same thing. Shame on them all.
 
We have to wait and see,He has already issued an Invitation to Taoiseach Enda Kenny to visit the White House for the traditional ST Patricks day celebrations next year, We have to wait and see ,So far he is the bigger Man in more ways than one,
There are People who don't Realise the are racist in there thinking ,They think they are superior to others,
 
If I have an income of 75k and I borrowed money to buy or build a house And I now find myself in negitive Equity Does it really matter once my wages can service my undertakings, I suspect the Subsistence Farmer in southern Sudan will not be looking down his nose at you,
 
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