What is the absolute final "drop dead" date for paying this LPT?
- Thread starter WizardDr
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Guns N Roses
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LPT Key Dates
- 1 November 2013: Liability (ownership) date for 2014
- 7 November 2013: Due date for submitting Payment Instruction in paper.
- 27 November 2013: Due date for submitting Payment Instruction on-line.
- 1 January 2014: Due date for payment of the 2014 liability. Full payment due if making a single payment through a Payment Service Provider.
- 1 January 2014 onwards: Phased payments by Deduction at Source and cash payments through a Payment Service Provider to start in January.
- 15 January 2014: Monthly Direct Debit payments commence and continue on 15th each month thereafter.
- 21 March 2014: Single Debit Authority payment deducted.
mandelbrot
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1st January I would have thought, based on when full payment is due.
That's why the instruction submission dates are earlier, and the SDA / phased payment collection methods are effectively interest free means of (slightly) deferred payment.
That's why the instruction submission dates are earlier, and the SDA / phased payment collection methods are effectively interest free means of (slightly) deferred payment.
I see that it is 8% interest that revenue are charging. I cannot see an exact date of when they are charging it from but I am just stating my opinion where you have not paid for 2013 that the clock will start ticking for Interest from 1st July 2013 and for 2014 the Interest clock will start ticking from 01 Jan 2014 notwithstanding all the payment options.
Folks
None of these tells me the 'drop dead date'.
For if you are paying by DD over the year without any additional charge (can that be right) then it could be December 31.
If the SDA is being taken on 21 March and the Revenue require X days to process (X being an integer between 1 and 271) then is 21 March + X the drop dead date?
And I notice that even Charlie Weston article had this:
"...Give your bank authority to make 12 monthly instalments
A direct debit gives authority to your bank to make a payment to a named company or government agency.
You are essentially instructing the bank to pay the tax in 12 monthly instalments. If you opt for this payment method then the first amount will come out of your bank account on January 15.
Taxpayers need to supply Revenue with the name and address of their bank, the account number and sort code.."
Is this 1/12 of the tax due or is there an additional charge?
Any answers?
None of these tells me the 'drop dead date'.
For if you are paying by DD over the year without any additional charge (can that be right) then it could be December 31.
If the SDA is being taken on 21 March and the Revenue require X days to process (X being an integer between 1 and 271) then is 21 March + X the drop dead date?
And I notice that even Charlie Weston article had this:
"...Give your bank authority to make 12 monthly instalments
A direct debit gives authority to your bank to make a payment to a named company or government agency.
You are essentially instructing the bank to pay the tax in 12 monthly instalments. If you opt for this payment method then the first amount will come out of your bank account on January 15.
Taxpayers need to supply Revenue with the name and address of their bank, the account number and sort code.."
Is this 1/12 of the tax due or is there an additional charge?
Any answers?
The drop dead final date is:
21st March if you want to pay it all in one go - Choose the SDA option.
Spread evenly over the year (Mid-month) if you want to pay by direct debit in 12 installments.
That's covered by the notwithstanding all the payment options comment
mandelbrot
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Looks like my gut was right.
Tax payable date is 1st January, except salary deduction cases.
Interest accrues from the payment date, so from 1st January in all cases except salary deduction cases.
In cases where one of the phased or deferred payment options (DD, SDA) are chosen, then interest will not be charged - so clearly without that provision interest would be due on those payment options.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/act/pub/0052/sec0119.html#sec119
"(1) Subject to subsection (2), local property tax contained in a self-assessment or a Revenue assessment or treated as contained in a Revenue assessment under section 49 shall be payable on or before—
(a) 1 July 2013, in respect of the liability date 1 May 2013, and
(b) 1 January, in respect of the liability date 1 November in any other year.
(2) Local property tax which is deductible by an employer under section 74 shall be payable within the period specified in Regulation 28(1) and (1A) or Regulation 29(1) and (1A), as the case may be, of the PAYE Regulations (within the meaning of section 64 ).
(3) Local property tax which is deductible—
(a) by the Minister for Social Protection under Chapter 2 of Part 10 , and
(b) by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine under Chapter 3 of that Part,
shall be payable within the period specified in section 93 (3) and section 111 (3), respectively."
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/act/pub/0052/sec0149.html#sec149
"(1) Subject to subsection (4), any local property tax payable by—
(a) a liable person, or
(b) a person who is directed by the Revenue Commissioners to deduct local property tax under Chapter 1 , 2 or 3 , as the case may be, of Part 10 ,
shall carry interest from—
(i) the date on which the tax is payable, or
(ii) the last day of the period within which the tax is payable,
until payment and the amount of that interest shall be determined in accordance with subsection (2).
(2) The interest referred to in subsection (1) shall be determined by using the following formula:
T x D x R
where—
T is the local property tax payable which remains unpaid,
D is the number of days (including part of a day) in the period during which the local property tax remains unpaid, and
R is the rate of 0.0219 per cent."
(3) The interest payable under this section—
(a) shall not be allowed as a deduction in computing any income, profits or losses for any of the purposes of the Tax Acts,
(b) may be collected and recovered in like manner as an amount of local property tax,
(c) shall be payable to the Collector-General, and
(d) shall be deemed to be a debt due to the Minister for the benefit of the Central Fund.
(4) Where a liable person—
(a) elects for a method of payment in a return, and
(b) pays the amount of local property tax in the self-assessment in the return in accordance with that method,
interest shall not be charged"
Tax payable date is 1st January, except salary deduction cases.
Interest accrues from the payment date, so from 1st January in all cases except salary deduction cases.
In cases where one of the phased or deferred payment options (DD, SDA) are chosen, then interest will not be charged - so clearly without that provision interest would be due on those payment options.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/act/pub/0052/sec0119.html#sec119
"(1) Subject to subsection (2), local property tax contained in a self-assessment or a Revenue assessment or treated as contained in a Revenue assessment under section 49 shall be payable on or before—
(a) 1 July 2013, in respect of the liability date 1 May 2013, and
(b) 1 January, in respect of the liability date 1 November in any other year.
(2) Local property tax which is deductible by an employer under section 74 shall be payable within the period specified in Regulation 28(1) and (1A) or Regulation 29(1) and (1A), as the case may be, of the PAYE Regulations (within the meaning of section 64 ).
(3) Local property tax which is deductible—
(a) by the Minister for Social Protection under Chapter 2 of Part 10 , and
(b) by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine under Chapter 3 of that Part,
shall be payable within the period specified in section 93 (3) and section 111 (3), respectively."
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/act/pub/0052/sec0149.html#sec149
"(1) Subject to subsection (4), any local property tax payable by—
(a) a liable person, or
(b) a person who is directed by the Revenue Commissioners to deduct local property tax under Chapter 1 , 2 or 3 , as the case may be, of Part 10 ,
shall carry interest from—
(i) the date on which the tax is payable, or
(ii) the last day of the period within which the tax is payable,
until payment and the amount of that interest shall be determined in accordance with subsection (2).
(2) The interest referred to in subsection (1) shall be determined by using the following formula:
T x D x R
where—
T is the local property tax payable which remains unpaid,
D is the number of days (including part of a day) in the period during which the local property tax remains unpaid, and
R is the rate of 0.0219 per cent."
(3) The interest payable under this section—
(a) shall not be allowed as a deduction in computing any income, profits or losses for any of the purposes of the Tax Acts,
(b) may be collected and recovered in like manner as an amount of local property tax,
(c) shall be payable to the Collector-General, and
(d) shall be deemed to be a debt due to the Minister for the benefit of the Central Fund.
(4) Where a liable person—
(a) elects for a method of payment in a return, and
(b) pays the amount of local property tax in the self-assessment in the return in accordance with that method,
interest shall not be charged"
Eithneangela
Registered User
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I think it's a one-off Direct Debit - so instead of regular payments via your bank account, you're paying once! 
Folks:
What Revenue have done here according to @mandelbrot is they have made the DUE DATE for 2014 January 1 2014. Whilst I could say this is outrageous, bear in mind that all your elected TDs and Senators passed this legislation. They clearly did not understand that the DUE DATE is 1/1/2014. This is what needs to be changed the eliminate the heat from this.
There are a number of reflections:
1. Revenue clearly did not articulate very clearly that in effect the tax for 2014 is really a tax for 2013 if you consider the payment dates i.e. if it were 31.12.2013 every fool would know that it is really 2013. 24 hours is a clever trick.
2. The deduction from pay seems a vastly complicated exercise that needs a reconciliation process inside Revenue - which they obviously decided to do.
3. All they have to do is allow 'single debits' to be allocated in the same way and to be fully paid in line with 2 above and I believe that is straight forward.
4. I assume some hugely expensive consultants like Accenture designed this but obviously did not query the absurdity of the date.
5. The lack of Revenue spokeperson to simply say that the actual due date is 1 January (which would have come as a surprise to many and obviously the TDs) and that they have cobbled together a deduction from pay as a concession and the single debit authority as another concession would have focused the debate exactly where it should have been - the Due Date.
That is where the debate should be.
@mandelbrot - thanks for the clarification.
What Revenue have done here according to @mandelbrot is they have made the DUE DATE for 2014 January 1 2014. Whilst I could say this is outrageous, bear in mind that all your elected TDs and Senators passed this legislation. They clearly did not understand that the DUE DATE is 1/1/2014. This is what needs to be changed the eliminate the heat from this.
There are a number of reflections:
1. Revenue clearly did not articulate very clearly that in effect the tax for 2014 is really a tax for 2013 if you consider the payment dates i.e. if it were 31.12.2013 every fool would know that it is really 2013. 24 hours is a clever trick.
2. The deduction from pay seems a vastly complicated exercise that needs a reconciliation process inside Revenue - which they obviously decided to do.
3. All they have to do is allow 'single debits' to be allocated in the same way and to be fully paid in line with 2 above and I believe that is straight forward.
4. I assume some hugely expensive consultants like Accenture designed this but obviously did not query the absurdity of the date.
5. The lack of Revenue spokeperson to simply say that the actual due date is 1 January (which would have come as a surprise to many and obviously the TDs) and that they have cobbled together a deduction from pay as a concession and the single debit authority as another concession would have focused the debate exactly where it should have been - the Due Date.
That is where the debate should be.
@mandelbrot - thanks for the clarification.
What's the point of all this? It's blatantly obvious that salary deduction, direct debit or single debit authority are the best options.
I got my letter, setup the single debit for 21st March 2014 in two minutes and moved on.
This tax is a reality, there's no point in continuing with petty arguments about why one payment method is less fair than another.
Absolutly DerKaiser, and it's all a nonsense really as people don't have to go with what they perceive to be a method of payment that they don't like.
Mandelbrot, excellent research there, as always. Can you tell me this, is Revenue allowed to bypass the due date in the legislation of Jan 1 by allowing us to pay in 2014 over 12 months by DD or in one payment in March.
Basically Revenue are making up their own rules?
Probably the best way to look at it is that the tax is due on 1st Jan, but flexible interest free payment options exist in the form of single debit, regular direct debit and regular salary deduction.
Revenue should just come out and say this to shut people up!!!
Why is it outrageous to have the due date of 1 January? Lots of services have to be paid for in advance of the 'benefit' - if your insurance runs from 1 January, you have to pay by 31 December or you don't have cover from midnight. The LPT is (in theory at least...) supposed to cover local services - how are the local services to be paid for in January if people don't pay their LPT until the following December?
+1
mandelbrot
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No, of course they're not making up their own rules! It's enshrined in the final bit of the legislation that I made bold, in my previous post, subsection 4 of the relevant section of the Act:
(4) Where a liable person—
(a) elects for a method of payment in a return, and
(b) pays the amount of local property tax in the self-assessment in the return in accordance with that method,
interest shall not be charged"
So again as I said previously, people who simply HAVE TO pay by laser/debit card/credit card can simply file their return, select the option to pay during the year through a service provider, and then pay it whenever it suits them at the post office or whatever other outlets suit... it may cost them an extra euro or 2 to do it that way, but that's the cost of having the flexibility to pay it interest free whenever it suits them...
Would anyone care to speculate on what might happen if one selected "pay through service provider" at this stage, and come January actually paid online by debit card?
Would that option still be available for those who "accidently missed" the deadline? It would seem extraordinary if it wasn't.