What info can we get from a smart meter

nest egg said:
This is the elephant in the room, and based on the debate this week, the media seemed to have missed this point too.
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Well, the primary industry hoping to benefit is the national grid, which is state owned and consumer & tax payer funded.
 
Leo said:
See the article linked here. In many cases the smart plans are offering better value, there is just a lot of misinformation and fear-mongering going on.
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That's over simplistic. They offer better value only if someone is prepared to adapt their lifestyle to the dictate of the supplier; i.e. to eat one's dinner before 5.00 pm or after 7.00 or only have a shower between midnight and 7 in the morning on alternate Saturdays when there's an "r" in the month.
 
Groucho said:
That's over simplistic. They offer better value only if someone is prepared to adapt their lifestyle to the dictate of the supplier; i.e. to eat one's dinner before 5.00 pm or after 7.00 or only have a shower between midnight and 7 in the morning on alternate Saturdays when there's an "r" in the month.
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If you think that's the case then you should complain to the regulator that the standard usage patterns they have approved for use in the accredited comparison sites are not accurate. They are specified to be representative of average user patterns prior to any behaviour changes.

As it stands, they offer marginally better value for the typical user who consumes 34% at night (11pm to 8am). The more you can shift usage to night, the cheaper they get. Of course the contrary applies in that if you use more during the day than average, they are more expensive and so not suitable.

Groucho said:
or only have a shower between midnight and 7 in the morning on alternate Saturdays when there's an "r" in the month.
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I'm sure you know that is nonsense. You also seem to be assuming that everyone is using on-demand electric showers which is far from the truth.
 
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Leo said:
As it stands, they offer marginally better value for the typical user who consumes 34% at night (11pm to 8am). The more you can shift usage to night, the cheaper they get.
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That may be true for 24 hour tariff, but I'm pretty sure that you are better off on a day/night tariff vs a smart tariff.
 
If the smart meters were better for consumers, providers would be supplying information to say so. Instead they say you could save money if you get a plan and change your behaviour.

The fact that you can't access your own usage data until you have converted to a smart meter plan, a decision that is irreversible, says a whole lot and is why the CRU are investigating the plans and their value. Sadly this being Ireland the likely outcome is the legacy 24 hour plans increase in price more than the smart plans.

Also I can't find any basis that "34% at night" usage figure. The only common thing among providers is the 4200 kWh yearly figure. In fact different providers use different values for the night percentage depending on where you are located. Everything from 22% to 39%. If you are at the high end, yes a 24hour to smart meter switch can save you money once you don't use much in peak, but if you closer to the low end, the 24 hour plan saves money.

Really as others have mentioned, if the smart plans were better value, people would be switching to them. Instead people aren't.
 
Groucho said:
Of course I do ........... but you started it with your nonsensical assertion that "in many cases Smart meters offer better value". :mad:
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If you have issues with the comparison sites calculations, you should take it up with the regulator.
 
ryaner said:
If the smart meters were better for consumers, providers would be supplying information to say so. Instead they say you could save money if you get a plan and change your behaviour.
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The problem there is that they can';t guarantee that as the ultimate price depends on consumer behaviour either not changing or changing to move more use to the night time rate. The providers don't have individuals' information to be able to stand over such a claim. Stating that would leave them open to being sued by anyone who switched and upped their daytime use.
 
Leo said:
The problem there is that they can';t guarantee that as the ultimate price depends on consumer behaviour either not changing or changing to move more use to the night time rate. The providers don't have individuals' information to be able to stand over such a claim. Stating that would leave them open to being sued by anyone who switched and upped their daytime use.
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Except that they do have the information once the meter is installed and could state that the smart meter plan would cost X based on your previous usage over the last billing period sort of thing.
While I do agree that a smart meter could help people change behaviour if the information was actually exposed better, the plans can't be stated as better value only if people have to change behaviour to achieve that better value.
 
Leo said:
If you have issues with the comparison sites calculations, you should take it up with the regulator.
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I'm happy to fall in with the 96% of smart meter owners who have elected to remain on non-smart tariffs. They can't all be wrong!
 
ryaner said:
Except that they do have the information once the meter is installed and could state that the smart meter plan would cost X based on your previous usage over the last billing period sort of thing.
While I do agree that a smart meter could help people change behaviour if the information was actually exposed better, the plans can't be stated as better value only if people have to change behaviour to achieve that better value.
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I suspect that, as implied in some of the articles, the issue is that rather than rewarding off-peak use, many of these plans heavily penalise on-peak use. So unless you change your behaviour they will never be cheaper than the non-smart rate, which ain't a great promotional tool. And even *then* they might not be.
The suggestion was to "shop around" to find one that did provide "better value" but without making the irrevocable jump to a smart plan, how can you tell if you can't see your data over time? Does such a plan actually exist?
I see it was mentioned that the ESB are planning to start exposing some of the data from the smart meters to allow you to actually make these decisions. That this is only being considered *now* is ludicrous.
 
ryaner said:
Except that they do have the information once the meter is installed and could state that the smart meter plan would cost X based on your previous usage over the last billing period sort of thing.
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They only get some of that information, and only if you are already a customer of theirs. ESB Networks don't share all data with all providers.

ryaner said:
While I do agree that a smart meter could help people change behaviour if the information was actually exposed better, the plans can't be stated as better value only if people have to change behaviour to achieve that better value.
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The portal that's 'coming soon' should be a real game changer here, allowing consumers way more access to their own usage data over time. Hopefully the data will be presented in such a manner as to make it easy to input the relevant elements into the comparison sites to get a really accurate view on your options across all providers.
 
Groucho said:
I'm happy to fall in with the 96% of smart meter owners who have elected to remain on non-smart tariffs. They can't all be wrong!
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Absolutely not, but a lot of them will be wrong. If you spend some time looking at your own usage, it's not that difficult to work out a good enough approximation of your own usage pattern.

I'd far rather spend a little time on that than believe most of the public commentary on this which is dominated by the usual voices who just moan about everything.
 
Leo said:
Absolutely not, but a lot of them will be wrong. If you spend some time looking at your own usage, it's not that difficult to work out a good enough approximation of your own usage pattern.
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I've been tracking my day and night consumption monthly for the past 38 years! Believe me, if there was a Smart meter package worth signing up to, then I'd already be on it! But there isn't.

And Bonkers.ie agrees with me!

Using the information provided, there are no savings available for your electricity supply We calculate that you would spend €1,739 over the next year with your current plan. See calculations
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Groucho said:
I've been tracking my day and night consumption monthly for the past 38 years! Believe me, if there was a Smart meter package worth signing up to, then I'd already be on it! But there isn't.
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Great, so you now know you don't fall into the average consumer bracket and smart plans don't suit your current usage patterns, That of course does not take away from the fact that many people would save by moving to such a plan.
 
Leo if you have a source for the Consumption Split I'd really appreciate it. I've contacted the CRU who only have the 4200kWh figure and directed me back to the individual providers for the rest of the split. I've not found any details in the CSO and even plugging in grid wide stats I can't get to the 30%+ figure show for nighttime.
 
ryaner said:
Leo if you have a source for the Consumption Split I'd really appreciate it.
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Sure, details are:

Consumption of 4,200 kWh split as follows:
52 % Day Rate
39 % Night Rate
9 % Peak Rate

Bonkers and Switcher both publish that same split, Powertoswitch don't detail it, but comes up with the same results.
 
Leo said:
Sure, details are:

Consumption of 4,200 kWh split as follows:
52 % Day Rate
39 % Night Rate
9 % Peak Rate

Bonkers and Switcher both publish that same split, Powertoswitch don't detail it, but comes up with the same results.
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Those are just the published figures, not the source of them. The CRU have said they aren't their figures. Other providers are using a different break down between the day and night rates.
 
ryaner said:
Here is https://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/our-tariffs themselves which list different figures for urban and rural, again with no source for where the breakdown is coming from.
Here is another with different figures https://communitypower.ie/tariffs/

Also both switcher and bonkers are "accredited" not regulated. I have emails in to both with no response yet querying where they got their figures.
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The CRU certainly mandate the standard times for the split. When it comes to a pure day/night split and consumption, in the CRU Electricity and Gas Suppliers' Handbook 2021 it states:
The Estimated Annual Bill for Day/Night tariffs should be calculated as a 62%/38% Day/Night split.
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This apportionment is informed by recent Smart Metering ESBN profiling for the Standard Smart Tariff which apportions consumption into Day, Night and Peak rates.

So, the ESB have crunched some data, then. The smart meters do send this info to the ESB, but according to their statement on data only if you have signed up for a plan which splits usage into those D/N/P bands, and the supplier has asked for it. Which, as we now know, is only 4% of those with a smart meter. For the other 96%, the ESB should only know how much is consumed every 24 hours, so they can only give data on a tiny fraction who, by definition, have changed to a plan which sees they are rewarded for night use/penalised for peak use and hence might be expected to have changed their behaviour.

But... the BG site goes beyond this and states the CRU mandates the day/peak/night consumption split, with
All suppliers are required by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities to use the average annual consumption figure in electricity of 4200 kWh to calculate Estimated Annual Bill figures. The way the consumption is allocated into Day Night and Peak prices is required by the CRU for all electricity Suppliers’ Standard Smart Tariffs. The way consumption is required to be allocated is set out below: (blah)

I can't see anything publicly available that backs that assertion up. As you say, Community Power have a completely different split for their standard smart tariff which I would say is far more representative of reality, and indeed may reflect the reality of *their* customers.
 
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