Do you think that is a good thing?
Do you think that is a good thing?It's probably little consolation SDMXTWO but despite the rather admonitory thread title it would appear that the trend of social welfare payments is going to be upwards under the current Government.
It is looking likely that the OAP will be increased & the lone parent allowance cut will be fully restored.
The pressure to increase both the JSA & JB particularly for the under 26's will surely gather steam as well.
We so need remarks like that, probably the most helpful comment I have read in months. My heart goes out to you as your life is obviously a well paid bed of roses.Cycle? Car pool? Move closer to work?
I don’t think smug is the right word. Concerned maybe a better one.Re post #415: That is very scary when written down in B/W. It just goes to show where so much of the countries money goes. But so far we have no realistic answers bar changing the rules from the ground up. No wonder some people are fairly smug on the comments regarding the unemployed.
"Employment: 20 hrs x €9.15/hr = €183/wk = €9,516/yr
FIS: (€834 - €183) x 60% = €391/wk = €20,332/yr
Rent Allowance: €1,200/mo = €14,400/yr
Child Benefit: €560/mo = €6,720/yr
Plus medical card"
Total: €50,968/yr.
Re post #415: That is very scary when written down in B/W. It just goes to show where so much of the countries money goes. But so far we have no realistic answers bar changing the rules from the ground up. No wonder some people are fairly smug on the comments regarding the unemployed.
"Employment: 20 hrs x €9.15/hr = €183/wk = €9,516/yr
FIS: (€834 - €183) x 60% = €391/wk = €20,332/yr
Rent Allowance: €1,200/mo = €14,400/yr
Child Benefit: €560/mo = €6,720/yr
Plus medical card"
Total: €50,968/yr.
We so need remarks like that, probably the most helpful comment I have read in months. My heart goes out to you as your life is obviously a well paid bed of roses.
I sincerely hope that I didn't come across as smug, that was not my intention and "changing" the rules alone won't help. In cases like the one you mentioned, moving to an area where there is a better chance of work, less need for a second car, may also have to be considered, or changing careers, if a previous career is in decline or not paying as it used to.
You have said it yourself:
"because at this stage for them it seems they are in a revolving hell of no future."
So the choice is to stay static, or move. There are no easy choices and I think that a lot of people in that situation are going to have to come to that conclusion too.
Think about it, you are out of work, lucky enough to find a job, now add up the cost of borrowing for a car, tax, insurance, NCT, parts & service etc. Not easy, especially when the pay is not great. Something went terribly wrong in our society and it has spread like a cancer.
The question was how to dismantle our culture of dependency. You don't believe that it exists.
Definition of Dependency Culture. This refers to a system of social welfare that encourages people to stay on benefits rather than work.
It suggests the tax and benefit system is designed to give little incentive for getting off benefits and into work.
A dependency culture may arise out of a desire to reduce relative poverty, through means tested benefits and a progressive tax system. For example, if a person is out of work with several children, they may be entitled to:
If they chose to work, they may lose these benefits and also pay more income tax and national insurance. Their net take home pay may be little different to that income received whilst not working."
- Unemployment benefit
- Housing Benefit
- Means tested child tax credits
- Free prescriptions e.t.c
it is a married couple with 4 children with one working part time.
"Employment: 20 hrs x €9.15/hr = €183/wk = €9,516/yr
FIS: (€834 - €183) x 60% = €391/wk = €20,332/yr
Rent Allowance: €1,200/mo = €14,400/yr
Child Benefit : €560/mo = €6,720yr
Plus medical card"
To get this income a person would need to be earning 69k a year (I have not included Child benefit because that is a universal payment).
The person earning 69k pays:
PAYE - Standard Rate €8,560.00
PAYE - Top Rate €12,880.00
Total Tax Bourne €21,440.00
Tax Credits €3,300.00
PRSI €3,000.00
Universal Social Charge €3,541.9
You might get on to a minister on that one. Save a fortune on greenhouse gases. Lovely idea though, we did it in Ireland decades back...looking back to see the future.All I can tell you is that here in Switzerland you are expected to use a bicycle if the job is within 10km of your home and if you can't afford one the community welfare officer will provide you with a second hand one, usually bought from the police sale.
On "unemployment" figures:
[broken link removed]
"The seasonally adjusted number of persons unemployed was 169,100, unchanged when compared to the June 2016 figure or a decrease of 29,800 when compared to July 2015. "
...
Some 43,500 people never contributed to PRSI, indicating that they never worked.
How many of these people are;
1) school leavers or college gradutes looking for work for the first time at a time of some 13-14% unemployment?
2) immigrants arriving to ireland from other EU countries but with no track record of working here
3) are engaged in full-time care of elderly or disabled person
4) actively seeking employment and participating in social welfare programs to upskill or retrain
5) actively seeking employment but because of a previous criminal record or drug or alcohol addiction are genuinely finding it difficult to receive offers of employment
6) in receipt of a disability allowance that hinders, but does not prevent them from taking employment? For instance, most office blocks are wheelchair friendly these days, but how wheelchair workers do you know of. I know of only two.
6) members of the Traveller community who have traditionally faced discrimination when it comes to employment.
7) scratching their This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language?
...
Thanks for posting these unemployment figures. As you can see in the year 2000, unemployment reached a low of 3.70% in 2000. From there it moved between 4-5% until 2008.
From 2008 to 2012, unemployment rose, peaking at 15%. Can you explain what happened here? Did welfare dependency become trendy? Did welfare become so generous as to tempt the thousands out of the workplace to the unemployment lines?
Can you recall the chorus of employers calling for their workers not leave for a life of welfare dependency and to come back to their posts?
Or can you recall the desperate employers whose lifes work and effort was descimated by our unregulated banking system and so-called free market capitalist economy?
Or the employees in Clerys, HMV and elsewhere who were cut short by our very well educated, very well paid, legal and finance sectors who connived to dump their redundancy payments on the taxpayer of a bankrupt country?
Wow. 22 pages and still hasn't been moved to LOS...Is that a record?
I am not reading 22 pages but is everyone not really in agreement? A small amount of people screw everyone else and don't have any intention of ever working. There is a welfare trap because it does sometimes pay not to take a job. Not everyone who make this choice is a waster. They are simply doing what is best for their family. Would we not all do the same? If the State wants to change this, then encourage people to take jobs.
The spongers aren't all the people choosing not to work. Middle class and rich families still take their bloody child benefit every month. They still take their pension relief, their health insurance relief, their mortgage interest relief, they CGT relief, their public transport relief, their tax credits, their tax allowances, their medical expenses relief etc etc etc. Why not scrap everything??
Also the title of the thread should be changed. Not everyone dependent on welfare is there because of a culture of dependency or because they want to. Yes there are some people who are but it is insulting to many people.
Well, for someone who keeps accusing me of misinterpretation lets get some things straight (and there is quite a bit that needs straightening here).
2)I never said welfare dependency does not exist. I have conceded it does, my fictional character Johnny is testament to that.
My argument is that the cost of this dependency is so miniscule in the round, that I contend that any attempt to dismantle it via welfare cuts, will ultimately drive more people into poverty and in fact cost taxpayers even more.
My question to you is; how many of those people in receipt of welfare and using your own defintion below, do you classify as welfare dependent?
For the purposes of debate, I will accept this definition for now, but I will contend that it is in fact incomplete.
If they choose to work, they will only lose these benefits if the value of the earned income exceeds certain thresholds. On the other hand if the value of the earned income does not exceed certain thresholds, then the benefits remain.
I took this example from you, I hope you are ok with that
I have to dispute these figures. You derive at a €50,000+ figure for a part-time worker with 4 children!
But to suit your own arguement you then discount the child benefit for an individual with 4 children on €69,000.
Where are you calculating €8,560 standard rate from? I would calculate as follows
Add the €6,720 child benefit (which was blatantly ommitted from this example to reduce income, but added to the p/t worker to boost welfare payments!!)
Thanks for posting these unemployment figures. As you can see in the year 2000, unemployment reached a low of 3.70% in 2000. From there it moved between 4-5% until 2008.
Many economists define "full employment" as 4%, to allow for contractors in between jobs, illness, injuries, people with mild disabilities such as aspergers, mild autism etc who find it difficult to compete socially and at interviews, and our buddies, the alleged cult of welfare dependents (who, for a myriad of reasons, and with the best will in the world, and with every training program under the sun, most employers wouldn't touch with a barge pole anyway).
Is it then reasonable to suggest that from the period 2000 to 2008, using the figures you provided, that there was no culture of welfare dependency (outside the 0.5-1%)?
From 2008 to 2012, unemployment rose, peaking at 15%. Can you explain what happened here? Did welfare dependency become trendy? Did welfare become so generous as to tempt the thousands out of the workplace to the unemployment lines?
Can you recall the chorus of employers calling for their workers not leave for a life of welfare dependency and to come back to their posts?
...and when I get some time I will respond to the rest of your post that contains more inaccuracies. It would help if in the meantime we could agree figures.
Which does not show that we have over 2 million people in this country in receipt of some form of a welfare payment. The Welfare bill is 20 billion.
https://www.welfare.ie/en/pressoffice/Pages/pr110713.aspx
If you read that document you will see a range of incentives that are designed to support both working people and unemployed peopl
I know, those pesky kids generating child benefit payments and those old age pensioners, get them back to work!!
Im not really sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting that child benefit and old age pensioners fall under your definition of a dependency culture? Really??
Are you suggesting that those that participate in the range of incentives that support working and unemployed people, as mentioned by the Minister, fall under your definition too?
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