"We are the only OECD state where some get back more than they pay in income tax"

[Palerider]

To obtain a full pension under current rules you must meet minimum contributions to prsi, your personal record can be obtained direct from the Department, if you do not meet criteria then you may fall back on a means tested pension, to say there is only a €16 difference is simplistic, I am a long way off pension age, I have a complete history of contributions since age 18 and plan to ensure I do not miss any, it is fair to say the return from the state contributory pension is terrific but it reflects a lifetime for most people paying into the system, I speak to the situation now not speculating on future changes.

People making the most from any system is not unusual, it is the responsibility of those that design the systems to have checks and balances, to decide anybody on the forum who has posted honestly as social parasites is demeaning, to include the same comment on the posters wife does not warrant any comment.

 

[Purple]

To obtain a full pension under current rules you must meet minimum contributions to prsi, your personal record can be obtained direct from the Department, if you do not meet criteria then you may fall back on a means tested pension, to say there is only a €16 difference is simplistic, I am a long way off pension age, I have a complete history of contributions since age 18 and plan to ensure I do not miss any, it is fair to say the return from the state contributory pension is terrific but it reflects a lifetime for most people paying into the system, I speak to the situation now not speculating on future changes.

The system, as it stands now, is unsustainable. We are beggaring our children by imposing the cost of our pensions on them. It is immoral and economically unsustainable. The return on the state pension does not reflects a lifetime for most people paying into the system, it reflects a lifetime of not paying for something and expecting those coming after us to pay for it. It's like the Celtic Tiger boom only much much bigger.

People making the most from any system is not unusual, it is the responsibility of those that design the systems to have checks and balances, to decide anybody on the forum who has posted honestly as social parasites is demeaning, to include the same comment on the posters wife does not warrant any comment.

You are entitled to your opinion but in my view citizenship comes with responsibilities as well as rights and one of those is to contribute to society where one can. To opt out of working full-time in order to live off your fellow citizens shows, in my opinion, a lack of personal integrity and honour and is parasitic.
The system should not be designed on the premise that the citizen has no integrity and is unwilling to accept the social contract. We are not animals.

 

[Palerider]

Yes some animals are more equal than others...

The system is the system, if you feel as strongly as these posts suggest then get yourself elected, if you can, influence change where you can, this is a community forum, slagging off other posters who post honestly and to do so as personally as you have is unjustifiable ...in my opinion.

 

[jjm]

Purple I have to say you and I are the reason we have the Socialist Republic It is the parties we have voted for who have pulled the wool down over our eyes .You only have to look at when the troiKa came to town they were very fast in taking back PRSI to 4% ,Before 2010 anyone earning over 26000 euro were paying a lot more it was 4% on the first 6604 Euro balance @8% for 2009/2010, If you go back before that it was 4% on the first 6604 Euro and 6% on the balance, The Trioka made them change it back to 4% and bring in the USC for everyone meaning everyone had to pay USC not just PAYE workers Right now Government are doing away with USC which can only mean one thing they plan to put PRSI back up to where it was before the usc came in on the paye workers,

 

[jjm]

cremeegg oop I posted reply on wrong forum,But i will leave it over there for the people in deniel

 

[TheBigShort]

It's an awful article, totally devoid of any concept of social principles or understanding of how the society and economy are intrinsically linked. One cannot survive without the other.
As too often on this site, the issues of taxation, social protection, economic growth etc are re-hashed through a narrow accounting narrative.
For example, no, or very little consideration is given to how a couple earning less than €25,000 with children, can actually survive in this country without social protection. Or how wages are skewed to over paying higher earners and suppressing the wages of low earners.
It stands to reason that if employers paid more wages to lower earners that they would begin to come out of social protection, reducing the (exaggerated) tax bill of high earners.

 

[jjm]

great to see you back

 

[Firefly]

great to see you back

Thinking the same thing myself. Nearly long enough for a new moniker too !

 

[Delboy]

It stands to reason that if employers paid more wages to lower earners that they would begin to come out of social protection, reducing the (exaggerated) tax bill of high earners.

It also stands to reason that if an employer has a large pool of potential workers to chose from, he can keep wages down. Hence shop assistants earn a lot less than doctors.
And that's how the system is set up, especially since the enlargement of the EU and the continuing Govt policy of granting thousands of work visas every year to non-EU migrants.
IBEC love this as it helps keep wages down. The Left want it too because they see potential votes from new migrants as their only chance of ever breaking the status-quo in who runs the country. And the lower paid workers are caught in the cross fire.

 

[jjm]

even with a new moniker i think i would still spot the old TheBigShort We have not seen a post like no 46 in a long time

 

[Purple]

great to see you back

It is indeed. While I disagree with most of what he says his points have substance and are well made. It'a always good to read contrary opinions as it should make you question your own views.

 

[Purple]

It's an awful article, totally devoid of any concept of social principles or understanding of how the society and economy are intrinsically linked. One cannot survive without the other.

I think we all agree with that. Where there is disagreement is at what point we get into a negative cycle, at what point do taxes on work cause fewer and fewer people to work and so damage the economy and society. We also have to ask what sort of society do we want; do we want the State to give a hand up or a hand out.

As too often on this site, the issues of taxation, social protection, economic growth etc are re-hashed through a narrow accounting narrative.

Maybe it is a counterbalance to most of the media ignoring the numbers completely.

For example, no, or very little consideration is given to how a couple earning less than €25,000 with children, can actually survive in this country without social protection.

We do have family income support so no couple with children ever has to survive on €25,000 a year.

Or how wages are skewed to over paying higher earners and suppressing the wages of low earners.
It stands to reason that if employers paid more wages to lower earners that they would begin to come out of social protection, reducing the (exaggerated) tax bill of high earners.

If I am making a product I have to sell it at a price people are willing to pay. If my costs of manufacture are higher than the price I can get for the product then my business will go under and the people working for me will have no job. The same goes if I'm running a shop. There is no point in ignoring market forces, they are the reason most Unionised businesses in the competitive sectors of the economy have gone bust.
I do think that some businesses blame wage costs for losses when the real reason is bad management and inefficient practices and processes.

 

[TheBigShort]

even with a new moniker i think i would still spot the old TheBigShort We have not seen a post like no 46 in a long time

Thanks all for the warm welcome. It's good to be back. Took a break for a while, stuff happens, to us all unfortunately.
Looking forward to some topical and challenging discussions.

 

[TheBigShort]

at what point do taxes on work cause fewer and fewer people to work and so damage the economy and society. We also have to ask what sort of society do we want; do we want the State to give a hand up or a hand out.

As we speak, without any real reform of the tax system, the unemployment rate has fallen from 15% to 6.6% and continuing to fall further with projected economic growth to be around 5% this year.
It's hard to see how the taxation system is the cause of fewer and fewer people wanting to work.

Maybe it is a counterbalance to most of the media ignoring the numbers completely

This topic originates from the media, basing it's detail on the numbers.

We do have family income support so no couple with children ever has to survive on €25,000 a year.

Yes, I know. The topic highlights how these people take out of the system more than they put in.
How could that possibly change?

If I am making a product I have to sell it at a price people are willing to pay. If my costs of manufacture are higher than the price I can get for the product then my business will go under and the people working for me will have no job. The same goes if I'm running a shop. There is no point in ignoring market forces

True, unless you pay your high earners a lot less and redistribute that income amongst low earners.
Speaking of market forces, it is such that market forces can bring thousands of people onto the streets to protest against things water charged. A sign that working people under certain income thresholds cannot sustain anymore cuts to that income.

 

[Purple]

As we speak, without any real reform of the tax system, the unemployment rate has fallen from 15% to 6.6% and continuing to fall further with projected economic growth to be around 5% this year.
It's hard to see how the taxation system is the cause of fewer and fewer people wanting to work.

keep looking. Look at how many are wealth creating, export focused indigenous Irish jobs and how many are in non wealth creating State sector or construction jobs.
Our economy was built on internationally traded goods and services jobs in the early 90's. That is the only sustainable economic model for a country like ours, the only one which can provide the income we need for the services we want.

This topic originates from the media, basing it's detail on the numbers.

A minor report on an issue which should dominate the media.

Yes, I know. The topic highlights how these people take out of the system more than they put in.
How could that possibly change?

It can't. We need to concentrate on getting more people to a position where their skills command a good income instead of taking hard earned income from those who have valuable skills and giving it to people who don't have them.

True, unless you pay your high earners a lot less and redistribute that income amongst low earners.

if that happens they will leave and take jobs with people who pay the market value for their skills.

Speaking of market forces, it is such that market forces can bring thousands of people onto the streets to protest against things water charged. A sign that working people under certain income thresholds cannot sustain anymore cuts to that income.

No, that's nothing to do with market forces. It's a sign that an opportunist washed out trade unionists and a couple of communists and populists can lie and distort and our left wing media won't call them out on their lies. That enables them to feed into a general public disgruntlement about politics and politicians and turn a minor environmental charge into a major issue where dimwits and morons want a constitutional referendum about the ownership of a public utility. Meanwhile we still have no controls on water use and the people's front of Dun Laoghaire still get to trot out utter nonsense about area metering, unchallenged by the pinkos and stickies in the Public Sector Broadcaster

 

[TheBigShort]

keep looking. Look at how many are wealth creating, export focused indigenous Irish jobs and how many are in non wealth creating State sector or construction jobs.
Our economy was built on internationally traded goods and services jobs in the early 90's. That is the only sustainable economic model for a country like ours, the only one which can provide the income we need for the services we want.

You are avoiding the point. More and more people are returning to work, in spite of the apparent unfairness of the taxation system. This is the reality.
You still like to propagate the view that fewer and fewer people are returning to work. This is myth.

A minor report on an issue which should dominate the media.

It's a minor report because it's easy to pick through the holes in it and identity it's inherent bias.
For it to dominate, it needs to be impartial, factual and convincing. It is none of those.

It can't. We need to concentrate on getting more people to a position where their skills command a good income instead of taking hard earned income from those who have valuable skills and giving it to people who don't have them.

How can you argue this on the one hand, then argue that we need to keep wages low to remain competitive?

if that happens they will leave and take jobs with people who pay the market value for their skills.

True, and if low income wages rise too high, business will become uncompetitive and leave also. So we need to keep wages competitive. But those that earn low incomes need to be able to live - roof over their heads, food on table, shirt on back, all that stuff.
So either we build an economy where there is a fairer redistribution of wealth (not going to happen anytime soon), or the State steps in to subsidise high income earners by taxing average income earners too much in order to support low income earners feed, clothe and house themselves.

 

[Protocol]

You are avoiding the point. More and more people are returning to work, in spite of the apparent unfairness of the taxation system. This is the reality.
You still like to propagate the view that fewer and fewer people are returning to work. This is myth.

Please note that only 25% of job entries in Ireland remove households from joblessness.

See here:

http://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Household-joblessness-paper-final.pdf

We have an underlying structural problem with inactivity, as well as a cyclical problem.

As the economy has recovered, and as the UNR has fallen towards 6%, the cyclical inactivity has declined, yes.

But we are still left with more people in VLWI household than across the EU, and higher levels of joblessness than elsewhere.

[Note that un is not the same as joblessness]

 

[Firefly]

Speaking of market forces, it is such that market forces can bring thousands of people onto the streets to protest against things water charged. A sign that working people under certain income thresholds cannot sustain anymore cuts to that income.

It's funny, when I was chatting to the guy putting in our water meter he said the only areas where they encountered any hassle where those where "people were used to getting everything for nothing", his words not mine!

 

[Firefly]

How can you argue this on the one hand, then argue that we need to keep wages low to remain competitive?

You can still be competitive with high wages. It's all relative to what your/our competition is charging for the same goods/services...

 

[Firefly]

You are avoiding the point. More and more people are returning to work, in spite of the apparent unfairness of the taxation system. This is the reality.

How many of those are lower paid and pay virtually no income tax?!!