"We are the only OECD state where some get back more than they pay in income tax"

TheBigShort

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I will, jammers at the moment. Probably after lunch.

Btw are you writing for the Guardian?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/08/dream-hoarders-1-percent-upper-middle-class

;):D
No, but if I had these two paragraphs, it could have saved a lot of effort...for everyone! :oops:


Rampant inequality is not the fault of a class of people doing exactly what anyone would do in their position, but a political and economic system that incentivizes and enables them to do so. (Don’t hate the player, hate the game.)It follows that the solution is not individual and moralistic, but collective and political.

All over the world, social democratic movements are gaining popularity and power on the strength of ideas meant to reduce inequality and stimulate the economy: increased inheritance tax, maximum wage, taxes on the wealthy, and increased spending on the programs people need to not just survive, but thrive.
 

Firefly

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So for the third time of asking, perhaps Firefly could give his answer to the Duke's question above?
So I come home and my small fella is holding a snapped coaxial cable in his hand all delighted with himself! No BB for me this weekend but will reply Mon !
 

Purple

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No, but if I had these two paragraphs, it could have saved a lot of effort...for everyone! :oops:


Rampant inequality is not the fault of a class of people doing exactly what anyone would do in their position, but a political and economic system that incentivizes and enables them to do so. (Don’t hate the player, hate the game.)It follows that the solution is not individual and moralistic, but collective and political.

All over the world, social democratic movements are gaining popularity and power on the strength of ideas meant to reduce inequality and stimulate the economy: increased inheritance tax, maximum wage, taxes on the wealthy, and increased spending on the programs people need to not just survive, but thrive.
The author looks too young to remember the 70's (as am I) but she should at least have done some reading. There is a massive wealth imbalance but her view, and yours, are far too narrow. We live in a world, not just a country, and the protectionist policies of rich Western socialists are a death sentence for the truly poor on this planet.
Every power group becomes self-serving, be they Unions or business groups or some secret society of Free Masons or Lizard people. The only thing that protects the people from those groups is democracy and all power must reside with the people through their parliament. That is the only place a sustainable solution can come from.
 

Firefly

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So for the third time of asking, perhaps Firefly could give his answer to the Duke's question above?
OK, firstly the question was put to you in a bit to understand your beliefs regarding a maximum wage and socialist views. You have just replied with Sweden but can you expand on why?

Given that Ireland has the most progressive taxation in the OECD I think we are closest to a socialist country from an income tax perspective. Our less well paid pay very little in income tax and those on higher incomes pay an awful lot more. Sure we have our problems and I was disgusted that we could increase public sector pay from the same purse that could easily eradicate homelessness. At a time when we have families living in hotels how we could take money away from them to just pay some people more money is an absolute disgrace.
 

Purple

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At a time when we have families living in hotels how we could take money away from them to just pay some people more money is an absolute disgrace.
The "haves" taking from the "Have not's". Those with the power, in this case middle class union represented public sector employees, are willing and able to take from the poor and powerless.
 

TheBigShort

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Given that Ireland has the most progressive taxation in the OECD I think we are closest to a socialist country from an income tax perspective.
Ok, you have persuaded me, Ireland it is so.

I was disgusted that we could increase public sector pay from the same purse that could easily eradicate homelessness. At a time when we have families living in hotels how we could take money away from them to just pay some people more money is an absolute disgrace.
This is so silly. It predicates that all our social ills are a consequence of public sector pay.
How did we get to a situation where families were living in hotels in the first place? Seeing as the public sector pay agreement has yet to be approved and implemented, then it can be shown that this proposed public sector pay increase has nothing to do with families living in hotels. Furthermore, it predicates, quite naively, that any savings in public sector pay will go to resolving the homeless crisis. Instead, it would probably used in the form of tax cuts for higher earners.
Should higher earners receive tax cuts while there are families living in hotels?
 

TheBigShort

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The "haves" taking from the "Have not's". Those with the power, in this case middle class union represented public sector employees, are willing and able to take from the poor and powerless.
Instead we should cut taxes for high income earners, yes?
 

Firefly

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This is so silly. It predicates that all our social ills are a consequence of public sector pay.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that at a time when we have a homeless crisis we should be spending what little money we have on fixing this before granting wage increases. There is a finite amount of money available and to me allowing a family live in a hostel at the same time we are awarding pay rises is just not acceptable.
 
J

jjm

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Lots of people are over paid in this Country Public/Private sector.It is one of the reasons we have high tax rates on higher earners,
 

TheBigShort

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I'm saying that at a time when we have a homeless crisis we should be spending what little money we have on fixing this before granting wage increases
And how do you propose we fix the homeless crisis? I would be interested in reading your proposals for this.

There is a finite amount of money available and to me allowing a family live in a hostel at the same time we are awarding pay rises is just not acceptable.
And tax cuts for higher earners, do you think it would be disgusting to afford higher earners a tax cut, while homeless families are living in hostels and hotels?
 

Purple

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Instead we should cut taxes for high income earners, yes?
No, instead we should spend the money on homelessness to alleviate the immediate problem. Then on housing generally. Then on infrastructure generally. Then on tax cuts for working people. At the same time we should look at reduce costs in the provision of State services through inefficiencies and process improvement (and not though pay cuts). This should result in job cuts in non value-added areas and the freeing up of resources to spend on increasing employment in value-added areas. There is more than enough money spent to provide all State services at the moment. The State just wastes so much of it we end up with homeless people, high taxes on the hard working, a creaking health system and an average education system.

The solution to a leaking bucket isn't to pore more water in, it's to fix the leak.
 

Purple

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Lots of people are over paid in this Country Public/Private sector.It is one of the reasons we have high tax rates on higher earners,
By OECD and EU standards mid ranking State employees are overpaid. Is that part of the group you are talking about?
 

Firefly

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And how do you propose we fix the homeless crisis? I would be interested in reading your proposals for this.
There are 7,860 homeless people according to the Peter McVerry Trust (https://www.pmvtrust.ie/news-media/facts-and-figures/)
Some are adult, some (very sadly) are children. If each and every one of them was provided with a high-end home costing 2,000 per month that would cost 188m a year. Over 4 years this would come in at 754m. Instead, the government in its wisdom is going to spend 1.1bn over the next 4 years on increasing PS pay.

And tax cuts for higher earners, do you think it would be disgusting to afford higher earners a tax cut, while homeless families are living in hostels and hotels?
I do.

I think we have a real crisis that will be remembered for a long time and we are doing nothing about it.
 

Firefly

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Lots of people are over paid in this Country Public/Private sector.It is one of the reasons we have high tax rates on higher earners,
I don't follow. Are you saying we have high tax rates because we have high incomes? I would understand if we had high taxes (the amount) but high rates?
 

TheBigShort

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No, instead we should spend the money on homelessness to alleviate the immediate problem. Then on housing generally. Then on infrastructure generally.
And when the homeless and housing crisis are fixed, what about all the other social issues? Like mental health, waiting lists, organised crime, childcare, classroom sizes, long-term unemployment etc, etc.
Should all these be fixed prior to public sector workers ever getting a pay rise?
 

Purple

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And when the homeless and housing crisis are fixed, what about all the other social issues? Like mental health, waiting lists, organised crime, childcare, classroom sizes, long-term unemployment etc, etc.
Should all these be fixed prior to public sector workers ever getting a pay rise?
There is enough money being spent on Public Services. Part of the return on increased structural efficiency should be given in pay rises; fewer, better paid State employees, with the same or lower work load, delivering better public services.
 

Firefly

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And when the homeless and housing crisis are fixed, what about all the other social issues? Like mental health, waiting lists, organised crime, childcare, classroom sizes, long-term unemployment etc, etc.
Should all these be fixed prior to public sector workers ever getting a pay rise?
It's a fair question, but I suppose the opposite could also be asked - given that the gap between the public and private sectors in Ireland is so large, with the gap being practically non-existent in the UK, wouldn't it be better if we focused on fixing the issues in mental health, waiting lists, organised crime, childcare, classroom sizes, long-term unemployment etc, etc before raising wages?
 

TheBigShort

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Perhaps, but you need to propose how you intend to fix them first. For instance, one such proposal for homeless families living in hostels is to understand what put them there in the first place. Perhaps they couldn't, or can't afford to pay rent or their mortgage even if employed.
So a pay increase may go some way to alleviate the homeless problem in such an instance.
Nevertheless, your proposals to fix our social ills would be welcome.
 

TheBigShort

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There are 7,860 homeless people according to the Peter McVerry Trust (https://www.pmvtrust.ie/news-media/facts-and-figures/)
Some are adult, some (very sadly) are children. If each and every one of them was provided with a high-end home costing 2,000 per month that would cost 188m a year. Over 4 years this would come in at 754m. Instead, the government in its wisdom is going to spend 1.1bn over the next 4 years on increasing PS pay.
Sorry, just seeing this now.
This is somewhat simplistic with respect. The homeless crisis will not be resolved without understanding what has made them homeless in the first place. Homelessness is an age-old problem, with a variety of reasons of why people become homeless in the first place. The current crisis is worse insofar that a relatively new demographic has emerged in the statistics, that is families, sometimes working families are now adding to list. People who, in most other times, through their earned incomes would afford a mortgage or pay rent.
Using your own source, the 102,711 mortgages in arrears is a frightening statistic. The 2,335 repossessed homes is also shocking. So in the middle of a housing crisis, repossessions are at all time high!
I cant see any evidence that any freeze on wages would result in the homeless crisis being resolved. In fact, this crisis has emerged after a period of pay cuts and freezes.

The Dept of Housing lists 1,256 families that are homeless.
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/homeless_report_-_march_2017_1.pdf
 
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