Seems like recycle right are missing the pay by weight idea.
Waste charges- pay by weight
- Thread starter Jumpstartdublin
- Start date
But that makes no sense. What part of the legislation do you feel is responsible for doubling in service charges that the providers were, and still are completely free to set themselves?
I hope I'm wrong ! I only put food waste in the compost bin and when packed full it definitely feels heavier than a few 40kg bags of coal, hence my estimate. We are a family of six so I suppose we can save money by eating less fruit and veg, and so less peelings in the compost bin, and switch to eating processed rubbish food packed in plastic and tetrapack containers, that can be recycled for free. You couldn't make it up!
After my next collection, I'm tempted to weigh what I put in with a luggage scales just to make sure they're in the right ball park.
newirishman
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,159
With CityBin on the North Side in Dublin. If I have a similar usage pattern for the 2nd half of the year as I had for the 1st half, costs will be going up by 25%.
Standing charge more than doubles.
They wrote in they information email that stats show that pay-by-weight leads to decrease in waste between 10-25%.
even if I use the 25% reduction I'll still end up with a 10% increase overall.
Not impressed.
Complaint to them already but not holding my breath for a reply I like.
Standing charge more than doubles.
They wrote in they information email that stats show that pay-by-weight leads to decrease in waste between 10-25%.
even if I use the 25% reduction I'll still end up with a 10% increase overall.
Not impressed.
Complaint to them already but not holding my breath for a reply I like.
Just spotted [broken link removed] pay by weight info page. I'm guessing their waste bin average weight should read 33kg instead of 330 kg, which for me , would seem about right. I estimated my compost bin at 100kg, they are saying 125kg so my compost bin charges increase 5 fold (20c per kg ) and the standing charge is increasing by €1 per month. My waste bin will cost about the same I think ie 35kg at 35c per kg. All told I will be paying about €200 per annum more than at present, mostly for making extensive use of our compost bin, which you would think should be encouraged.
Brendan Burgess
Founder
- Messages
- 53,766
Are there any good summaries of what the different companies charge in the Dublin area?
If it hasn't been done, would anyone like to compile one?
Brendan
If it hasn't been done, would anyone like to compile one?
Brendan
If you have scales where you can balance a wheelie bin on it fully then yeah, that'd be ideal.
All bins have an RFID tag, the bin is weighted on the tipping and after the tipping to get a net weight. In my case it is accurate to 0.5KG however there is nothing to prevent someone throwing an item of waste into your bin that will make it heavier.
My account shows the weights for all last year for each week.
I did query double weights recently and was told that if some waste is stuck in the bin they have to lift it twice, in my case a weight of 20 kg and 10 kg were recorded totaling 30kgs for that week or €7.5 for that collection alone not including the €15 service charge.
Not a lot coming out of Coveney's meeting this evening.
Just a vague threat that he will act if the Waste companies go ahead with their charges as currently laid out.
He seems to be focusing on the standing charge increases. And while thats part of the problem, the per kilo charges are the real issue IMO. They are 3 times the minimum level set out by Kelly.
It's a tax on large/largish families!
I've a feeling FG are going to totally miss the point on this, think they have resolved the issue only for it to rare up again in late Summer when people have had their first few lifts done and are billed for same
Just a vague threat that he will act if the Waste companies go ahead with their charges as currently laid out.
He seems to be focusing on the standing charge increases. And while thats part of the problem, the per kilo charges are the real issue IMO. They are 3 times the minimum level set out by Kelly.
It's a tax on large/largish families!
I've a feeling FG are going to totally miss the point on this, think they have resolved the issue only for it to rare up again in late Summer when people have had their first few lifts done and are billed for same
Nothing in the papers today on the meeting. FG competency and failure to deal with this and the housing crisis may work to oppositions favour so we could see an autumn election.
Meanwhile my bins will be empty Tuesday and then I cancel. I'll manage my own waste and charge myself.
Meanwhile my bins will be empty Tuesday and then I cancel. I'll manage my own waste and charge myself.
Seems one of the big costs as regard weight and rubbish are the "nappies". There's baby's nappies and there's the pads and nappies older people with certain ailments have to put on and they can all weigh a tonne when wet. I'm lucky that our children are all grown up and the nappy problem is over for us, but I can see the situation arising where an awful lot of them are going to be dumped all over the countryside if these new costs come in.
I read somewhere that this pbw scheme will bring at least 40% 'consolidation' to the industry which means there will be mergers, (like Greenstar n Pana) are trying to do at the moment and therefore there will be less competition for customers which defeats the whole reason for privatising it in the first place and then they can charge what they like.
Should be given back to the councils to run. Less trucks on the road, so less air pollution and less noise
pollution as bin day is only once a week, here it is a daily collection including bank holiday Mondays.
Should be given back to the councils to run. Less trucks on the road, so less air pollution and less noise
pollution as bin day is only once a week, here it is a daily collection including bank holiday Mondays.
Last edited:
Brendan Burgess
Founder
- Messages
- 53,766
Got this interesting email just now from City Bin. It seems reasonable, but my waste charges are relatively small, so I haven't really followed the issue.
Brendan
There has been an enormous amount of confusion and misinformation around the pay-by-weight issue. Customers are upset with the new charging system and waste contractors are upset with the government. We are deeply sorry that events have unfolded in this manner, and we too are totally frustrated with the situation.
However, to try and add some clarity to the debate, please take a few minutes to read the points below. They may shed some light on the situation.
As I mentioned above, the 87% claim was incorrect and unhelpful. Under pay-by-weight there is no mechanism for continued cross subsidisation. Bills will certainly go down for many households around the country and those who benefit most are those that (a) reduce the overall amount of waste they throw out through prevention and re-use, and (b) maximising their recycling efforts through proper use of the brown and green bins.
Finally, from our analysis, we believe that, on average, under the new legislation roughly one third of bills will go down, one third will stay in or around the same and one third will go up. Over time, the households whose bills initially go up will start to climb back down as they reduce output and use the three bins properly.
We have no control over this legislation and, at this point, we have no idea if it will go ahead. As soon as we have clarity on the situation we will provide you with an update. The City Bin Co. have always set their stall out on service and this is where we excel.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Brendan
There has been an enormous amount of confusion and misinformation around the pay-by-weight issue. Customers are upset with the new charging system and waste contractors are upset with the government. We are deeply sorry that events have unfolded in this manner, and we too are totally frustrated with the situation.
However, to try and add some clarity to the debate, please take a few minutes to read the points below. They may shed some light on the situation.
- Nobody likes paying for the guy next door but this is exactly what has been happening with household waste collection in this country. Through the ‘flat fee’ charging system, a household producing 1.5 tonnes of waste is paying the same as the household producing 0.75 tonnes of waste. There are far too may low users currently subsidising high users and, under pay by weight, these high users cannot receive lower bills without dramatic behaviour change and this won’t happen overnight.
- The previous minister’s statement (made a few weeks before the election) that 87% of households would see reduced bills is mathematically impossible without further subsidisation, either from the taxpayer or the waste collector. The analysis supporting this statement did not include current prices in the Dublin market. Waste collection charges in Dublin are, on average, 25% less than the rest of the country. As well as the cross subsidisation going on within Dublin through flat fee pricing, there is also cross subsidisation with customers outside Dublin. With pay-by-weight, more people outside Dublin will see their charges go down as they currently pay market rates. That’s just a fact because prices in Dublin barely reflect the fixed cost element.
- The minimum charges per kilogram do not come near meeting the actual costs of disposal. Gate fees at disposal sites are higher than 11c per kilogram for landfill waste and the 6c per kilogram for organic materials. Although the minimum charge for the green bin has been removed from the legislation, waste collectors have to pay to get rid of recycling. The idea that waste collectors get paid for recycling is a common myth. Saying that recycling should be free is like saying that electricity generated from wind farms should be free.
- The cost to manage your waste goes way beyond the cost of disposal. There are trucks, bins, salaries, fuel, tax, depots, administration etc. etc. The majority of this is captured by the service charge. There has always been some form of a service charge element in the pricing structure. This is not new. Under pay-by-weight the service charge is separate.
- There are three reasons why a household’s bill could go up with pay-by-weight. The first is if the household produces more waste than the average household. The second could be if the household doesn’t currently use the green and brown bin optimally. The third is where the household may be producing average or even below average waste but are on a legacy flat fee or per lift pricing plan where this plan doesn’t cover the cost of providing the service and hence is a beneficiary of the current cross subsidisation. Pay-by-weight brings these anomalies to the fore.
As I mentioned above, the 87% claim was incorrect and unhelpful. Under pay-by-weight there is no mechanism for continued cross subsidisation. Bills will certainly go down for many households around the country and those who benefit most are those that (a) reduce the overall amount of waste they throw out through prevention and re-use, and (b) maximising their recycling efforts through proper use of the brown and green bins.
Finally, from our analysis, we believe that, on average, under the new legislation roughly one third of bills will go down, one third will stay in or around the same and one third will go up. Over time, the households whose bills initially go up will start to climb back down as they reduce output and use the three bins properly.
We have no control over this legislation and, at this point, we have no idea if it will go ahead. As soon as we have clarity on the situation we will provide you with an update. The City Bin Co. have always set their stall out on service and this is where we excel.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Brendan, the problem is that those of us who manage and segregate our waste know the impact of the charges apart from the obvious fact is that they go up. No account has been taken for young families and low income families in regard to these charges. Should the charges come in then these sections of society will be impacted most and resort to "fly tipping" to reduce cost.
In my own case I was frankly surprised at the service charge amount (€180 per year) before a bin is lifted. Then I looked at the history of collections for the household of 4 noting we were a 3.5 person family for a part of last year and saw an extra €100 added straightaway through the 25 cent / kg charge and the 15 cent / kg charge for compost, (grass cuttings weight a tonne). Composting should be free.
Our waste is managed well to this point, in fact we needed two recycling bins, but even with that I felt our base charge of €285 was excessive for what we got. Bear in mind the recyclable element makes the company money, all those plastic bottles, cardboard and tin cans.
What has annoyed me is that I have now 5 wheelie bins, 2 recycling, 1 compost, 1 glass and 1 general waste. They take up acres of space that luckily I have but the new jungled biweekly collection introduced here since end May makes a mockery of catching the right bin the right week (even with AES Ire's coloured chart). If you happen to be away on a particular week you are rightly stuffed.
Now I intend to cancel my AES contract tomorrow. By managing it locally myself I can turn around the waste when I want, the issue is that there should be deposit point's made available to bring general waste in small quantities to, and pay the weight involved in landfill of that item. You would be surprised what is thrown into general waste and that aspect has seen the general waste aspect drop right down this week. It is not quite there yet but I'm sure it will get there.
In my own case I was frankly surprised at the service charge amount (€180 per year) before a bin is lifted. Then I looked at the history of collections for the household of 4 noting we were a 3.5 person family for a part of last year and saw an extra €100 added straightaway through the 25 cent / kg charge and the 15 cent / kg charge for compost, (grass cuttings weight a tonne). Composting should be free.
Our waste is managed well to this point, in fact we needed two recycling bins, but even with that I felt our base charge of €285 was excessive for what we got. Bear in mind the recyclable element makes the company money, all those plastic bottles, cardboard and tin cans.
What has annoyed me is that I have now 5 wheelie bins, 2 recycling, 1 compost, 1 glass and 1 general waste. They take up acres of space that luckily I have but the new jungled biweekly collection introduced here since end May makes a mockery of catching the right bin the right week (even with AES Ire's coloured chart). If you happen to be away on a particular week you are rightly stuffed.
Now I intend to cancel my AES contract tomorrow. By managing it locally myself I can turn around the waste when I want, the issue is that there should be deposit point's made available to bring general waste in small quantities to, and pay the weight involved in landfill of that item. You would be surprised what is thrown into general waste and that aspect has seen the general waste aspect drop right down this week. It is not quite there yet but I'm sure it will get there.
Last edited:
Thanks for posting that City Bin update, but it leads to as many questions as it answers.
Are there no economies of scale in Dublin collections by having a concentration of customers in the one place? Fuel is specifically mentioned as a cost.
How, if Dublin prices are 25% less than elsewhere, and Dublin is the largest single market, can it be the case that if they have to pay full market rates (like the rest of the country), that only 1/3 of City Bin customers will see price increases? What is their customer breakdown?
What is the cost per kg of disposal?
Have they subsumed the cost per kg for green bin disposal into their service charge, or into their black \ brown bin charging structure?
Why, when the legislation was being introduced, did they not make a submission outlining how wrong the 87% figure was, and clearly stating that their expectation was that 1/3 of customers would see price increases and why that was the case?
Are there no economies of scale in Dublin collections by having a concentration of customers in the one place? Fuel is specifically mentioned as a cost.
How, if Dublin prices are 25% less than elsewhere, and Dublin is the largest single market, can it be the case that if they have to pay full market rates (like the rest of the country), that only 1/3 of City Bin customers will see price increases? What is their customer breakdown?
What is the cost per kg of disposal?
Have they subsumed the cost per kg for green bin disposal into their service charge, or into their black \ brown bin charging structure?
Why, when the legislation was being introduced, did they not make a submission outlining how wrong the 87% figure was, and clearly stating that their expectation was that 1/3 of customers would see price increases and why that was the case?
A lot of the above may be true but the point remains that this is a tax on families and/or those with people who use continence pads for example. There are no allowances made as was the case with Irish Water for kids.
So for a family of 2 + 4 (2 of whom are in nappies) we will be hammered, despite fully using our green bin.
But I would like to see some independent analysis of the Waste Companies need to charge over 3 times the min limits set out in the legislation. And how so many of them came in around the same rate...very suspicious.
But we can't see their accounts can we...they're registered to the Isle of Man or Jersey! So if it's fairness and clarity they want, they can practice what they preach before trying to triple their annual charge to me at least
So for a family of 2 + 4 (2 of whom are in nappies) we will be hammered, despite fully using our green bin.
But I would like to see some independent analysis of the Waste Companies need to charge over 3 times the min limits set out in the legislation. And how so many of them came in around the same rate...very suspicious.
But we can't see their accounts can we...they're registered to the Isle of Man or Jersey! So if it's fairness and clarity they want, they can practice what they preach before trying to triple their annual charge to me at least
newirishman
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,159
It is not a tax. (Water charges are by the way also not a tax but that's a different discussion.)
Families gets hammered? Well, I guess that's what the child benefit payments are there for essentially.
I am not happy about the increase but i am also not a fan that everything gets paid from general taxation - I am as you can imagine a huge fan of the "polluter should pay" principle. Still royally annoyed by the increase in standing charge. I still think that a combination of low standing charge and combination of lift- and pay-by-weight charge would be more transparent and also fairer.
Very much agree though on the lack of impact of "competition" - the price difference between the two options that are available in my area are almost negligible.