Vulnerable Person who opened an account using a fake name now struggling to withdraw cash using his real name

[Gordon Gekko]

I think it is both inappropriate and incorrect to describe what the OP's father did as ‘fraud’ or that he acted ‘fraudulently’. He opened the account with a different name than the one on his birth cert. But based on what we are told he did not act with deception to obtain an unlawful gain, or wasn’t money-laundering. So it does not appear to be a fraudulent act.

Opening accounts in names other than that on your birth cert was a fairly common practice in the past, for example many with first names of Immaculata or Concepta etc. preferred to use their second name of Mary or Joan, etc. in official documentation. It is unfortunate your father used a totally different name but as has been suggested elsewhere you really need to look at the terms and conditions at the time the account was opened.

I don’t see how the bank can walk away from this. They allowed your father to open and operate the account. It’s your father’s money. He doesn't appear to have acted fraudulently. It is for the bank to tell you what you must do to obtain the money, not for you to suggest solutions.. You could also look at the Central Bank’s Consumer Protection Code 2012. Consumer Protection Code 2012 - published 2015 (centralbank.ie), to see / ensure their response to you in handling your complaint is compliant with the code. [I recently has to deal with an institution on behalf of an elderly relative. We kept hammering them on ‘you tell us what we must do’. They did and the issue was sorted out.]

“Person who opened an account using a fake name now struggling to withdraw cash using his real name”

I’m no fan of the banks, but honest to God, at what point do customers and/or their families admit personal responsibility?

Why was nothing done in the interim?

 

[Anto41]

It was impossible to open an account back in the day without an address. The EBS internal forms require an address. What is the address on the book?

care of the branch. They asked him for nothing basically

Where there are mental health issues, it has not been unknown for people to open bank accounts in different names.

there's often a paranoid delusion that "they" are going to steal money & the false name is a way to hide it.

the adopted name usually has some relation to the persons own name, it might be a grandparent or 'as gaeilge', a middle name etc.

Severe depression and paranoia. He was on a host of medication (some of which is now discontiuned due to the impact it had on the patient)s

 

[Brendan Burgess]

“Person who opened an account using a fake name now struggling to withdraw cash using his real name”

Thanks Gordon. I felt that the thread title was completely misleading and was trying to think up a more accurate title.

 

[Knuttell]

How much money is in the account?

Is the game worth the candle?

 

[Anto41]

“Person who opened an account using a fake name now struggling to withdraw cash using his real name”

I’m no fan of the banks, but honest to God, at what point do customers and/or their families admit personal responsibility?

Why was nothing done in the interim?

Are you actually kidding me. Do you have any understanding of mental health - as you obvously do not. The reason nothing was done if you bothered readng the thread is because (1) the family did not know about it until this year after our father had a stroke and was unable to afford to sort out the electrics in his house as he didnt have the money. We then needed to start digging why was this was and (2) The man was on 4 different types of medication for the last 50 years. Some years he probably didnt know what he was doing as he was on a cocktail of antidepressants - many of which have now been discontinued as a result of the severe side effect that it was discovered that they had

So my friend - if you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation other then changing the name of the thread, try to be a little more tolerant and less of a keyboard warrior

 

[Kimmagegirl]

Back in the 80's you did not have to provide ID to open an account. Many people did it. Mostly for non resident accounts. I knew of one bank manager who used the address 1 Main Street, Newry on accounts, in order to get the business.

Once you signed the non resident Declaration then it was on your shoulders.

The OP's father did not have a non resident account. Just an ordinary account.

Back then in the EBS withdrawals were signature based. No ID required, other than your signature matched the signature in the back of the book.

There was a major fraud where someone got hold of Pass books that were held in a branch. They issued replacement books and then put their version of the account holders signature on the back of the book. They then visited numerous branches and withdrew large sums of money, based on the signatures matching.

 

[PMU]

“Person who opened an account using a fake name now struggling to withdraw cash using his real name”

Is this not hurtful to the OP? Also it's incorrect. It wasn't a fake as in spurious name, or using the the name of a real person with the intention of deception. It was a different name than the name on the father's birth cert. So what? Say he had opened it in the Irish version of his name, would this problem exist?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

. What im complianing about is the fact that the bank is not working with us to resolve this complex matter - they are saying that basically they are keeping the money (or NTMA when it goes dormant)

The bank came back though and basically said that they cant help us as we cannot provide any ID for the name on the account (it went to their legal and vulnerable team).

It is odd that the bank can't provide a solution. For example, telling you or your father that he must get an affidavit or a guarantee or something like that. But I can fully understand that the bank is vulnerable. They hand out the money and then John Doe shows up looking for the money.

I doubt that this situation is covered in the Handbook.

The former staff who knew your dad should be able to help confirm that it is he. However, they might not want to get involved as the banks got savaged for opening non-resident accounts when the authorities knew that they were doing it, but turned a blind eye.

I would suggest that you ask the bank for a Final Response Letter which allows you to take it to the Ombudsman. That often wakes up a senior person who might look for a solution.

You could also contact the Dormant Accounts section of the Central Bank and ask them for guidance on the matter.

Dormant Accounts | Central Bank of Ireland

The purpose of the Dormant Accounts Act 2001 is to reunite account holders with their dormant funds held in banks, building societies and An Post. A dormant account is an account that has shown no activity for 15 years.

www.centralbank.ie

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Is this not hurtful to the OP? Also it's incorrect.

The original title was completely misleading. It was something along the lines of "EBS refuses to return deposit".

Gordon's was a big improvement.
And the current version is even better.

Brendan

 

[thedaddyman]

I'm sure the OP's father was not the first and only person in Ireland to open an account with false names etc back in the 80's, That's why we had things called Tax amnesties back in the day, to try and bring this money back "into the fold". It was a different world

All very easy for people to shout fraud on this occassion but given the fathers mental state then and physical state now, it's unlikely this will ever come to a trial.

Firstly, EBS cannot simply hand over the money. This is not a case of someone changing name via a deed poll for example, and indeed, it's not even the account holder who is attempting to recover the funds, rather a relative. Hence they have an account in name x and name y is trying to claim that name x is really name z (if that makes sense).

It could be worth contacting the Bankers Payment Federation for advice.

Assuming the last transaction was in 2011, it will go dormant in 2026.

It's quite possible there is a tax liability here as well, or at best, a risk of a tax audit. Assuming the funds were legit, if's included in Probate when the time comes (and hopefully that's a long way away), it could delay and complicate probate.

 

[elcato]

I know plenty of people who opened up accounts in fictitious names in the 70s/80s. Most, if not all, of the reasons were for avoidance of revealing the money to others, be they government services or individuals, who may lay claim to a share. I'm not suggesting this was the case for the OP but given that how, imho, 'widespread' it was, then the banks must have a solution process for it.

 

[Anto41]

It is odd that the bank can't provide a solution. For example, telling you or your father that he must get an affidavit or a guarantee or something like that. But I can fully understand that the bank is vulnerable. They hand out the money and then John Doe shows up looking for the money.

I doubt that this situation is covered in the Handbook.

The former staff who knew your dad should be able to help confirm that it is he. However, they might not want to get involved as the banks got savaged for opening non-resident accounts when the authorities knew that they were doing it, but turned a blind eye.

I would suggest that you ask the bank for a Final Response Letter which allows you to take it to the Ombudsman. That often wakes up a senior person who might look for a solution.

You could also contact the Dormant Accounts section of the Central Bank and ask them for guidance on the matter.

Dormant Accounts | Central Bank of Ireland

The purpose of the Dormant Accounts Act 2001 is to reunite account holders with their dormant funds held in banks, building societies and An Post. A dormant account is an account that has shown no activity for 15 years.

www.centralbank.ie

A final response letter - that is solid advice. I will ask them for that when I am talkin to them again. Thanks!

I'm sure the OP's father was not the first and only person in Ireland to open an account with false names etc back in the 80's, That's why we had things called Tax amnesties back in the day, to try and bring this money back "into the fold". It was a different world

All very easy for people to shout fraud on this occassion but given the fathers mental state then and physical state now, it's unlikely this will ever come to a trial.

Firstly, EBS cannot simply hand over the money. This is not a case of someone changing name via a deed poll for example, and indeed, it's not even the account holder who is attempting to recover the funds, rather a relative. Hence they have an account in name x and name y is trying to claim that name x is really name z (if that makes sense).

It could be worth contacting the Bankers Payment Federation for advice.

Assuming the last transaction was in 2011, it will go dormant in 2026.

It's quite possible there is a tax liability here as well, or at best, a risk of a tax audit. Assuming the funds were legit, if's included in Probate when the time comes (and hopefully that's a long way away), it could delay and complicate probate.

Yeah and i get that from the banks perspective. Its more about the working with us with whatever they will take. Thats a good idea regarding the bankers Federation though. Ill get on to them aswell

 

[Steven Barrett]

Have you been dealing with the manager in the branch? Is someone in EBS taking ownership of this or have the all just walked away. There has to be a solution to this. More than just a shrug of the shoulders because it's a hard one to solve.

 

[elcato]

How did he get statements without giving them an address to send them to?

He picked them up in the branch. He was in there regularly. But all Hothe staff he used to be there are retired

What address is on the statements ? Is it C/O EBS ?

 

[DannyBoyD]

A final response letter - that is solid advice. I will ask them for that when I am talkin to them again. Thanks!

Put that one in writing, not a phone call.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

Are you actually kidding me. Do you have any understanding of mental health - as you obvously do not. The reason nothing was done if you bothered readng the thread is because (1) the family did not know about it until this year after our father had a stroke and was unable to afford to sort out the electrics in his house as he didnt have the money. We then needed to start digging why was this was and (2) The man was on 4 different types of medication for the last 50 years. Some years he probably didnt know what he was doing as he was on a cocktail of antidepressants - many of which have now been discontinued as a result of the severe side effect that it was discovered that they had

So my friend - if you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation other then changing the name of the thread, try to be a little more tolerant and less of a keyboard warrior

No, I’m not kidding.

During these last 40 years, did anyone in your family, your father included, raise an eyebrow when they saw that his bank account is in the name of ‘Billy Bunter’ rather than his real name?

It’s a sad state of affairs, but it’s not EBS’s fault, it’s your family’s.

My sense is that there’s very little you can do; maybe get Conor Pope on the case or even better ‘talk to Joe’? This is exactly the type of nonsene case where Joe Duffy and the lunatics who listen to him might metaphorically storm the EBS and get your father back his money on the basis of the ‘grave injustice’ that’s taking place, nevermind the fact that ‘we bailed out the banks’ and that ‘the banks wrecked the country’.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

It was a different name than the name on the father's birth cert.

It was not the OP's father's name. It was not someone else's name. It was therefore a fake name. But this is moot.

All very easy for people to shout fraud on this occassion but given the fathers mental state then and physical state now, it's unlikely this will ever come to a trial.

I agree. It is highly unlikely anyone would be interested in prosecuting this, and it's not even clear there was a trial.

OP should do the following:

1. Assemble documentation and keep copies
2. Write a letter requesting a rectification of the situation to EBS
3. If rejected, make an appeal to EBS
4. If rejected again, take it to the Ombudsman

It is critical to do the above steps in order.

Once he is happy to do so I think letters signed by the father is administratively simplest. Once someone else is involved the bank will not deal with them.

 

[Early Riser]

No, I’m not kidding.

During these last 40 years, did anyone in your family, your father included, raise an eyebrow when they saw that his bank account is in the name of ‘Billy Bunter’ rather than his real name?

It’s a sad state of affairs, but it’s not EBS’s fault, it’s your family’s.

My sense is that there’s very little you can do; maybe get Conor Pope on the case or even better ‘talk to Joe’? This is exactly the type of nonsene case where Joe Duffy and the lunatics who listen to him might metaphorically storm the EBS and get your father back his money on the basis of the ‘grave injustice’ that’s taking place, nevermind the fact that ‘we bailed out the banks’ and that ‘the banks wrecked the country’.

The irony here is that you are sounding just like the type of spluttering, indignant blowhard one often hears on "Talk to Joe"!

 

[Gordon Gekko]

What about trying to change your father’s name by Deed Poll to the fake name?

Changing your name

This page explains how to change your name in Ireland and how to get proof of your new name.

www.citizensinformation.ie

 

[Marsupial]

No, I’m not kidding.

During these last 40 years, did anyone in your family, your father included, raise an eyebrow when they saw that his bank account is in the name of ‘Billy Bunter’ rather than his real name?

It’s a sad state of affairs, but it’s not EBS’s fault, it’s your family’s.

My sense is that there’s very little you can do; maybe get Conor Pope on the case or even better ‘talk to Joe’? This is exactly the type of nonsene case where Joe Duffy and the lunatics who listen to him might metaphorically storm the EBS and get your father back his money on the basis of the ‘grave injustice’ that’s taking place, nevermind the fact that ‘we bailed out the banks’ and that ‘the banks wrecked the country’.

Bear in mind that the guy is asking for our assistance; he's not looking for a forensic analysis of his father's unwise actions.

It's also worth bearing in mind that, like him or loathe him (and I can't stand him) Joe tends to get things done for people.