Vinne Browne on Gilmore & Rabbitt

[Chris]

We don't need the CRO? ODCE? Employment rights enforcement and a court of arbitration? HSA? An office to issue work permits? Labour court? Import/export licencing? Consumer agency? Competition authority?

CRO: No need for it, companies will exist without a piece of paper that say they are registered. It is red tape, nothing more.

ODCE: Enforcement of laws should be done through the justice system, we do not need a separate office to complicate matters.

Employment rights/court of arbitration/labour court: Same thing, we have a justice system, which needs to be overhauled, but that is no reason for a separate court system.

Work Permits: I'm an open boarders kind if guy. If someone wants to come here and work in a legal activity, then let them do it (without the support of the taxpayer). Ireland once supported a population of more than 8 million; the US and Canada became great economies because of immigration.

Import/export licencing: Why do we need to restrict who imports or exports what and when, by handing out licences? This restricts trade and does not advance it.

Consumer agency: Consumers are perfectly capable of looking after themselves, without the help of the NCA. When people buy stuff, do they go to the NCA for advice or do they do a bit of research online to find consumer and expert reviews? And if they believe they have been wronged or defrauded with their purchase the there is at the very least the small claims court. And in bigger cases the justice system.

Competition authority: Competition is a natural phenomenon in a free market environment. We do not need an "authority" to check if a company is being anti-competitive. If there is lack of competition, and there is actually a viable market, but there are no new companies entering the market, then it is due to restrictions put in place by government, like the above mentioned licencing for example.

 

[Chris]

The ENTIRE department?

We don't need the CRO? ODCE? Employment rights enforcement and a court of arbitration? HSA? An office to issue work permits? Labour court? Import/export licencing? Consumer agency? Competition authority?

Chris - Ayn Rand called she's looking for copyright infringement!

Hahaha, she was in favour of term limiting intellectual property rights, maybe 30 years was enough in her opinion ;-)

 

[Complainer]

Yes, as a net cost to the taxpayer, i.e. the private sector, I have no problem with that calculation being used. I don't think I have ever criticized public sector pay in general. There are things that governments should be doing and I have no problem paying those people adequately for their efforts and looking at the net cost to the taxpayer. My issue has always been with the size of government in total being far far too large.
I am personally not in favour of arbitrary pay cuts, but rather to limiting government in size at the very least to its revenue, by getting rid of services that are not crucial, or are totally unnecessary and useless.

Great - I look forward to bringing my net salary up to the levels of the gross salary of my comparators in the private sector - woohoo!

We've had these discussion many times, but here are some off the top of my head:
- Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine: get rid of it; farmers will still farm, and food producers will still produce food; despite fishing quotas that nobody understands fish stocks are apparently still on the brink making this department either incompetent or incapable (saving €870ml)
- Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht: get rid of it altogether, people will survive (saving €260ml)
- Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation: get rid of it altogether, governments cannot create jobs, they can only pose a barrier (saving €805ml)
- Department of Public Expenditure and Reform: get rid of it, we do not need a department to get rid of other departments (saving €865ml)
- Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport: get rid of it; people will still visit here and play sports, and government should not be monopolizing the transport market (saving €1.6bn)
- Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade: get rid of it, government does not facilitate trade, companies are perfectly able to trade; and in today's day and age we do not need consulates all over the world (saving €660ml)
- get rid of all motor tax offices; they are totally unnecessary when you can pay over the internet, phone, post and I think even in the post office (savings ???)

Great - so let's get rid of Dept Agriculture, and bring on the horse burgers, in a rat milk sauce, with a fricasee of dog - consumers will just sort it out, right?

Let's get rid of the Dept of Tourism, and along with it the 1million visitors that come to the Cliffs of Moher Visitor Centre every hear.

Let's get rid of Enterprise Ireland, and the supports that it gives to the Foreign Direct Investment companies to match the supports offered in other countries.

Let's get rid of the Dept of Arts Heritage and Gaeltacht, and close down the National Museum, the National Gallery and many other supported arts and cultural venues (all providing employment and bringing in tourists of course).

CRO: No need for it, companies will exist without a piece of paper that say they are registered. It is red tape, nothing more.

ODCE: Enforcement of laws should be done through the justice system, we do not need a separate office to complicate matters.

Employment rights/court of arbitration/labour court: Same thing, we have a justice system, which needs to be overhauled, but that is no reason for a separate court system.

Work Permits: I'm an open boarders kind if guy. If someone wants to come here and work in a legal activity, then let them do it (without the support of the taxpayer). Ireland once supported a population of more than 8 million; the US and Canada became great economies because of immigration.

Import/export licencing: Why do we need to restrict who imports or exports what and when, by handing out licences? This restricts trade and does not advance it.

Consumer agency: Consumers are perfectly capable of looking after themselves, without the help of the NCA. When people buy stuff, do they go to the NCA for advice or do they do a bit of research online to find consumer and expert reviews? And if they believe they have been wronged or defrauded with their purchase the there is at the very least the small claims court. And in bigger cases the justice system.

Competition authority: Competition is a natural phenomenon in a free market environment. We do not need an "authority" to check if a company is being anti-competitive. If there is lack of competition, and there is actually a viable market, but there are no new companies entering the market, then it is due to restrictions put in place by government, like the above mentioned licencing for example.

WOuldn't Ryanair and other large providers just love to see the Competition Authority being taken away?


WOuld these self-empowered consumers include the many consumers who fell for for the simple Slovenian mobile phone scam over the weekend? Sure they don't need any Govt agency to get refunds for them - right?

And how exactly to you get savings by moving enforcement functions from ODCE and employment rights tribunals back into the general court system, which is already overloaded and does not have the skill, knowledge or capacity to deal with these cases?

Unfortunately, the theory doesn't work too well in the real world.

 

[Purple]

Great - I look forward to bringing my net salary up to the levels of the gross salary of my comparators in the private sector - woohoo!

Can you explain how you managed to get to that conclusion from what Chris said above?

Great - so let's get rid of Dept Agriculture, and bring on the horse burgers, in a rat milk sauce, with a fricasee of dog - consumers will just sort it out, right?

Why have an entire department to look after enforcement of standards?

Let's get rid of the Dept of Tourism, and along with it the 1million visitors that come to the Cliffs of Moher Visitor Centre every hear.

I was as the Cliffs of Moher before and it wasn’t because there was a guy from the Dept of Tourism standing behind me with a pointy stick.

Let's get rid of Enterprise Ireland, and the supports that it gives to the Foreign Direct Investment companies to match the supports offered in other countries.

Enterprise Ireland don’t give any support to Foreign Direct Investment companies and never have. They support Irish companies seeking to export, or at least they are meant to. They do great work in some areas but in my experience, working with them for over a decade, about 80% of what they do is a waste of time and money.
Getting rid of the IDA (which is what I think you meant to talk about) would have a negative impact but reducing red-tape and reducing the top rate of income tax, that your mates are so eager to increase, would go a long way to balancing things out.

Let's get rid of the Dept of Arts Heritage and Gaeltacht, and close down the National Museum, the National Gallery and many other supported arts and cultural venues (all providing employment and bringing in tourists of course).

Why would museums all close just because a department closed down?

I’m not in favour of what Chris is proposing but I’d like to see the state move much closer to that than where it is now.
We restrict businesses ability to function by employing people at the expense of the real economy to administer bureaucratic restrictions. Then, when businesses suffer due to the extra cost burden, instead of removing that cost we employ yet more bureaucrats to give the businesses their own money back and call it grant aid!

 

[Firefly]

@Purple

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIIuR-HjFho

 

[Chris]

Great - I look forward to bringing my net salary up to the levels of the gross salary of my comparators in the private sector - woohoo!

I would imagine that that will not be the case as your total compensation will have to include the true net value of your pension.

Great - so let's get rid of Dept Agriculture, and bring on the horse burgers, in a rat milk sauce, with a fricasee of dog - consumers will just sort it out, right?

We have that department and yet burgers were still produced with horse meat. Hundreds of millions spent every year on a FAILED system. There is no way the use of horse meat is a new phenomenon, it has been going of for years undetected. If there was no department in charge of this, then people would not have the false sense of security over food quality. People do research before they buy computers, or cars or book hotels, but when it comes to government regulated industries there is a blind faith. If there was no designated department then people would do their research and check up on independent expert reviews, just like they do with so many other things they buy.
The very same thing happened, and still happens, with financial services. Banks are regulated, so why bother researching them before making a deposit or taking out a loan? But buy a computer or a car, and people check expert reviews, book test drives, get demonstration and check out customer reviews. Why would people not do that with everything else?

Let's get rid of the Dept of Tourism, and along with it the 1million visitors that come to the Cliffs of Moher Visitor Centre every hear.

Do you honestly think that people go to the Cliffs of Moher to look at the visitor center? They go there to look at the cliffs and they will still be there without a department of tourism.

Let's get rid of Enterprise Ireland, and the supports that it gives to the Foreign Direct Investment companies to match the supports offered in other countries.

Foreign companies invest here because of the tax rates, not because of Enterprise Ireland. FDI did not increase in the 90s because of Enterprise Ireland, or the IDA or any other government service. It increased because corporate taxes were low and overall red tape was, and to an extent still is, comparatively low.

Let's get rid of the Dept of Arts Heritage and Gaeltacht, and close down the National Museum, the National Gallery and many other supported arts and cultural venues (all providing employment and bringing in tourists of course).

They don't need to close down, they can still be operated by a private enterprise. The reason there is no competition or private alternative in these areas is because people that visit those museums do not pay, which gives them an unfair advantage over any potential private enterprise. Just because government doesn't do something doesn't mean that it wouldn't be done. Government does not make shoes or phones or car tires, but yet we have plenty of choices in those areas. Why would it be any different in museums or visitor centers?

WOuldn't Ryanair and other large providers just love to see the Competition Authority being taken away?

They probably would, but they would also HATE to see the market opened to competitors of all sizes.

WOuld these self-empowered consumers include the many consumers who fell for for the simple Slovenian mobile phone scam over the weekend? Sure they don't need any Govt agency to get refunds for them - right?

No they don't. People need to take responsibility for their own actions, and if they are defrauded then they should take legal action. I should not have to pay for someone else's mistakes.
According to the Times, the connection charge was "in excess of €2", so I will assume it is less than €5. People made a very stupid mistake by simply calling a +386xxxx missed call number and now they paid a couple of euros for a good lesson. That is not a crisis that needs to be looked after by government and paid for by those who were not scammed.
[broken link removed]

And how exactly to you get savings by moving enforcement functions from ODCE and employment rights tribunals back into the general court system, which is already overloaded and does not have the skill, knowledge or capacity to deal with these cases?

I did mention that the entire legal system needs to be overhauled. Courts should be operating longer hours and more days; we need to get rid of the barrister system; it should not be mandatory to have a qualified solicitor/barrister represent you in certain courts; the list goes on. The small claims courts system is a perfect example of how to speed up and reduce the cost of certain cases.

Unfortunately, the theory doesn't work too well in the real world.

No, you, and many other people, simply believe that if government doesn't do certain things then they will not be done and everything will disintegrate. There is simply no evidence for such a belief; actually quite the opposite is the case.
Cuba recently went from 100% state employment to 85%. At the time there was panic and outrage about it in Cuba, because the belief was that (a) those 15% of services would no longer be offered and (b) there would suddenly be 15% unemployed. What happened? No increase in unemployment and small private enterprises started filling the gaps.
The theory has proven time and again to work perfectly well; it is your socialist blinkered world view which ignores all historic facts that is constantly being proven inept.