Using Éire?

[Latrade]

This is more of a rant than a query. But the perspective is that I have a lot of UK based clients with operations here. Now they tend to get all upset when they are informed by either employees or various inspectorate that reference in documentation to the "mainland" isn't really that acceptable. They also get upset when you have to tell them that this small little country actually his its own laws and rules and that they actually separate to the ones you have on the "mainland" and so it's not really prudent to insist that you branches here ignore the local legislation in favour of foreign legislation that has no application here.

But the final point is the use of smatterings of Gaeilge*. First is constant reference to the country as "Éire". First, it just sounds wrong from a strong English accent, but is it correct? I was always taught that you only use Éire when speaking Irish, so if speaking English, you use Ireland. In the same sense that you say Germany in English, not Deuchland.

I just think it's a tad pretentious and slightly demeaning too. I also think I'm being way over sensitive.

*posting in English I suppose it should also be Irish rather than Gaeilge.

 

[Sunny]

To be fair to them, I think Eire was the generally accepted term in the UK when refering to Ireland for many years. Not used so much anymore so it might be a generational thing. I wouldn't get offended by it myself!

 

[dereko1969]

yeah always annoys me too for reasons i'm not too sure of, i just always have flashbacks to emlyn hughes using it in football commentaries!

 

[Latrade]

To be fair to them, I think Eire was the generally accepted term in the UK when refering to Ireland for many years. Not used so much anymore so it might be a generational thing. I wouldn't get offended by it myself!

I'll admit it's largely because it just sounds wrong comming from an english tongue. But then I rant too at how the pronouce Ireland exactly the same as "island". Damned if they do I suppose.

 

[csirl]

I was always taught that you only use Éire when speaking Irish, so if speaking English, you use Ireland.

You're correct on this.

I agree with a lot of what you say. I once got this culture in a multinational organisation changed when I pointed out that using the wrong name would make some important documents legally invalid. Also pointed out that some customers may also take offence with the incorrect name of their country being used. Fear of legal actions and losing customers is a great way to change behaviour.

 

[Caveat]

I agree it's a generational thing. Like Free State as well.

Anyway Latrade, this is a definite case of 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' on your part!

Annoyed at the way English people pronounce Ireland - aren't you English?!

 

[michaelm]

I also think I'm being way over sensitive

Probably. Does Article 4 of the Irish Constitution not state that . . The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland. I'm not sure you can fault anyone using Éire.

 

[liaconn]

This is more of a rant than a query. But the perspective is that I have a lot of UK based clients with operations here. Now they tend to get all upset when they are informed by either employees or various inspectorate that reference in documentation to the "mainland" isn't really that acceptable. They also get upset when you have to tell them that this small little country actually his its own laws and rules and that they actually separate to the ones you have on the "mainland" and so it's not really prudent to insist that you branches here ignore the local legislation in favour of foreign legislation that has no application here.

It's like something out of Jeeves and Wooster .

 

[Mpsox]

This is more of a rant than a query. But the perspective is that I have a lot of UK based clients with operations here. Now they tend to get all upset when they are informed by either employees or various inspectorate that reference in documentation to the "mainland" isn't really that acceptable. They also get upset when you have to tell them that this small little country actually his its own laws and rules and that they actually separate to the ones you have on the "mainland" and so it's not really prudent to insist that you branches here ignore the local legislation in favour of foreign legislation that has no application here.

Took us about 2 years to get a few English people to understand this. We kept asking them why they were referring to France everytime they used the mainland word. Also found that asking them to check the VAT implicatons on things also made them realise. My boss, who's English, admits he didn't really comprehend the differences until he was over here once, had a few hours to spare and went up to Kilmainham jail

 

[mathepac]

Took us about 2 years to get a few English people to understand this. ...

In the overall scheme of things, that's a pretty good result.

... asking them to check the VAT implicatons on things also made them realise. My boss, who's English, admits he didn't really comprehend the differences until he was over here once, had a few hours to spare and went up to Kilmainham jail

I didn't realise Revenue ran VAT training up there, but hey, great use of the space, great outcome

 

[VOR]

It does say Éire on our coins so you can't really blame them. I supposed they are trying to give this place its proper title.

 

[Latrade]

I agree it's a generational thing. Like Free State as well.

Anyway Latrade, this is a definite case of 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' on your part!

Annoyed at the way English people pronounce Ireland - aren't you English?!

Sir! I insist: Plastic Paddy if you please.

 

[DrMoriarty]

Ah, bless, they mean well.
Beats the heck out of "Sathern Island", innit?

 

[Caveat]

@ Latrade

As you wish synthetic Sasenach.

Do we have permission then to rant in general about English pronunciation? I'll start by saying that I love accents generally and England has a few fascinating ones, many quite pleasing to the ear BUT, maybe it's just me, and this is quite specific I suppose, but there is a very particular way that women from the SE pronounce chocolate.

It's like chook-lah or something. Said with permanently pursed lips.

I can't even describe how awful it sounds to me. Sorry.

 

[TarfHead]

I get more agitated about references to this country as 'The South'. I can understand (though not agree with) Nordies using the term; Unionists who want to demean this country, Shinners who are holding out for a 32 county country. But when RTE and other media channels do it, I get annoyed.

I have been in Donegal (Culdaff), which is further north than any point in Northern Ireland, and heard Nordies refer to being in 'The South' .

Where else in the world is a sovereign country referred to, in an offhand way, as being some geographic abstraction ?

If so, why can't people refer to Dublin as being The East. It's bad enough for people to get the name of my country wrong, without them implying that I might be from Cork !

 

[Latrade]

@ Latrade

As you wish synthetic Sasenach.

Do we have permission then to rant in general about English pronunciation? I'll start by saying that I love accents generally and England has a few fascinating ones, many quite pleasing to the ear BUT, maybe it's just me, and this is quite specific I suppose, but there is a very particular way that women from the SE pronounce chocolate.

It's like chook-lah or something. Said with permanently pursed lips.

I can't even describe how awful it sounds to me. Sorry.

Is it correct to use Sasenach when insulting in English? I've confused myself now.

 

[Betsy Og]

If so, why can't people refer to Dublin as being The East. It's bad enough for people to get the name of my country wrong, without them implying that I might be from Cork !

The more pressing point for you should be the notion of "down the country" which is this homogenous haze that exists beyond Newlands Cross, the lack of knowledge of your average Dub of anything beyond his side of the capital is bleedin shockin, d'yaknowwhharrrime-an?

Far too much sensivity re the Irish situation, us residents of the British Isles (the home countries ??) should really move on. I feel I'm going to have to put on a Celtic jersey and start drinking Dutch Gold if I hang around this topic for much longer.

 

[mathepac]

Is it correct to use Sasenach when insulting in English? ...

My understanding is that sasanach (Irish version of the word) simply refers to a Saxon.

There are other words that may be used as insulting or racist epithets for example in the line from the song "Gaeil iad fein 's ni Gaill na Spainnigh". The Irish word "Gaill" (noun, plural) means foreigners, invaders or people who don't belong (singular "Gall" , pronounced like "cowl" but with a "g"). There may be a connection somewhere between Gall and Gaul, but I can't find it. It is not specifically a reference to English people, but it may be implied.

There is another word that sounds like "Gall" and may sometimes be confused with it. That word is "Gabhall" (pronounced like "cowell" but with a "g") meaning a fork (in a road, or a tree) or in less polite society it may be used as a disparaging reference to female pudenda. "Gabhall" may sometimes be deliberately used instead of "Gall" for a Joycean Dublinesque effect. Again this word is not specifically used in reference to English people, but is a more generic epithet.

 

[PyritePete]

Ah, bless, they mean well.
Beats the heck out of "Sathern Island", innit?

This is one sure way of UK companies to alienate themselves from doing business here. Mysister in law used to use Southern Ireland a lot, it took me years to get through to her

Slightly off topic, we once were sent the same Christmas cards they used in the UK with the Union Jack prominently placed in the centre, on the front...I refused to sign/send them to my customers.

 

[Caveat]

My understanding is that sasanach (Irish version of the word) simply refers to a Saxon.

And by extension an English person generally - no?

That was my understanding. I remember the word being used in Irish prose at school. I didn't take it as an insulting word, just the term used. Béarla for the language, Sasanach for the person. I'm probably completley wrong though.