UPVC or Wooden windows?

[KatyG]

Hi

My husband and I have just bought a barn conversion that was originally converted back in 2000.

The windows are currently wood single glazed, which is no good and we are looking at changing them.

Our neighbour that is in the other half of the barn conversion has put in UPVC oak effect windows, which originally we were going to put in ours due to the look of the overall barn, but on thinking about it, we prefer the look of the wooden windows with the squares, which it already has (cottage style I believe), and thought about staining them the same colour as our neightbour.

We are unsure what to do as there are so many different opinions on what is heat efficient, noise efficient etc.
The house is made of solid stone (about 1.5 foot thick), so it has no real insulation so we've got to get the right windows to help.

We live next to quite a busy road so we have got that to take into account too.

What are cost differences? Is wood more expensive?

Thanks in advance!!

K

 

[BillK]

Don't know about costs over there, but most of our wooden window frames had new double glazed units made to fit;result was a significant increase in Temperature in our house.

Given that you have a barn conversion I would have thought that wooden windows would be much more sympathetic than any PVC.

Good Luck.

B

 

[S.L.F]

Hi KatyG,

in the short term wood is more expensive but over the lifetime of windows it works out cheaper.

I don't know what it would cost for uPVC windows but a fully finished arched window 7'x3.5' windows I quoted for recently would cost just over 2K each.

 

[Hillsalt]

If you are within 1km of the coast, i would avoid wooden windows. Other than that, i haven't a clue.

 

[S.L.F]

If you are within 1km of the coast, i would avoid wooden windows. Other than that, i haven't a clue.

I have been restoring windows down in Trafalga Terrace right on the sea front those windows have been there since before your grandfather was even a twinkle in his fathers eye.

Those windows have not rotted.

I have restored windows that are 250 years old in Dublin city less than 1km away from the sea.

I know of sliding sash windows that are 400 years old and still working.

I have seen old stone buildings with walls crumbled and the sash windows intact.

 

[doyler]

you can now get the old sash style windows in Upvc with the georgian affect in the glass for the squares and much cheaper than wooden ones i here, they look great have seen them in cream and wood colour look lovely

 

[galleyslave]

wood requires regular maintenance - pvc is maintenance free... that's got to be a consideration when planning

 

[S.L.F]

wood requires regular maintenance -

Painting every 5 to 7 years is not what I call regular maintence anybody who tells you it has to be done more regularly than that doesn't know what they are talking about.

pvc is maintenance free... that's got to be a consideration when planning

If, in the next few years, you damage a fitting of your uPVC windows you have to replace the entire sash (very possibly the entire window) whereas if you damage a wooden sash it can be repaired and repainted and nobody wil ever know it was damaged at all.

The other thing to consider is the sliding gear that is used in uPVC windows change over the course of time so if you get a system in now and it breaks down in 2 or 3 years the designs will probably have changed so getting a new one will be impossible.

As for uPVC being maintence free put a new piece of white uPVC beside a ten year old uPVC door and tell me it's maintence free.

 

[sabre]

Painting every 5 to 7 years is not what I call regular maintence anybody who tells you it has to be done more regularly than that doesn't know what they are talking about.



If, in the next few years, you damage a fitting of your uPVC windows you have to replace the entire sash (very possibly the entire window) whereas if you damage a wooden sash it can be repaired and repainted and nobody wil ever know it was damaged at all.............

Your are comparing the fitting of a pvc window with the sash of a wooden window, thats slightly misleading. Its not fair to say you would have to replace an entire pvc window, if you had a broken fitting. Using the same analogy it would be quicker to make a new pvc sash, than a timber one.

sabre

 

[S.L.F]

Your are comparing the fitting of a pvc window with the sash of a wooden window, thats slightly misleading. Its not fair to say you would have to replace an entire pvc window, if you had a broken fitting. Using the same analogy it would be quicker to make a new pvc sash, than a timber one.

sabre

sabre, that is a load of rubbish.

Anybody knows that uPVC fades after a time so if you have a broken sash and after ten years put a new one beside it it will look totally different to the old ones.

Also if you have been following AAM for the last couple of years like I have you will note that people have awful trouble getting the various uPVC companies to make a single sash they will happily make you an entire house of windows but a single sash..........good luck.

The other thing you have chosen to ignore is that fittings, styles and shapes change over the course of time so when you go to get your single sash made you'll find that it won't fit the frame.

S.L.F

 

[sabre]

You seem to be talking a load of rubbish now. Lets stick to the facts of your posts, not the length of time that you or I have posted here, thats not important.

If, in the next few years, you damage a fitting of your uPVC windows you have to replace the entire sash (very possibly the entire window) whereas if you damage a wooden sash it can be repaired and repainted and nobody wil ever know it was damaged at all.

The other thing to consider is the sliding gear that is used in uPVC windows change over the course of time so if you get a system in now and it breaks down in 2 or 3 years the designs will probably have changed so getting a new one will be impossible.

Your claim that a broken fitting in a pvc window, requires a replacement sash or window is totally wrong. As in the case of sliding sash windows, fittings are also available for pvc windows. Types of fittings that change for pvc windows, also occur in the realm of timber sash windows.

In the cased of the single sash for a pvc window, you would be more likely to get a single sash made in pvc quicker than a timber sash, either for a casement window or a sliding sash window. Pvc sash material is in bar length, so there is no machining prep work required as in timber sashes. Making a pvc sash is a 15 minute job from start to finish, including fittings, espags ect. You,d be hard pressed to select and rip the timber for a wooden sash in that time. I have made both pvc and timber, so I am extremely familiar with both mediums.

Colour issues in both timber and pvc may give rise to similar issues. White in the case of pvc may be a problem, as will unstained timber. Both will have seen the ravages of weather and uv light.

I hope this is not rubbish

Thankyou for the welcome back

sabre

 

[NHG]

Firstly, I fully agree with S.L.F.

Most uPVC Profile manufacturers change their profile quiet regularly, thus making it virtually impossible to get a replacement sash for a uPVC window, whereas with a timber window, be it casement or sliding sash anything can be coppied/made.

Alot of people are also quiet surprised when I tell them that uPVC swells in the heat, alot of problems with french doors and window sashes as they swell and won't close/fit back into their frame until they go back to original size, would'nt like to see what would happen if we got a summer here in Ireland.

I also feel that some people may be geting confused when we speak about a sash. A sash is the the part of the window that opens in and out on the hinges in a casement window and moves up & down in a sliding sash window.

 

[S.L.F]

Your claim that a broken fitting in a pvc window, requires a replacement sash or window is totally wrong. As in the case of sliding sash windows, fittings are also available for pvc windows. Types of fittings that change for pvc windows, also occur in the realm of timber sash windows.

You are quite correct about my point about having to replace an entire sash when a fitting gets broken, I meant to say if you damage a uPVC sash or a window you can't repair it.

It must be binned.

The fittings I use for sash windows have been available for hundreds of years in brass, chrome or steel and are still available now and haven't changed in style at all.

However the fittings I have seen used in uPVC sliding sash windows are not around for a long period of time and thus if you damage one you have to replace it so if the style or shape of them is constantly changing how are you going to fit it in place.

Basically in the case of uPVC sliding sash windows you will have to replace the entire window if your fittings are knackered.

In the cased of the single sash for a pvc window, you would be more likely to get a single sash made in pvc quicker than a timber sash, either for a casement window or a sliding sash window. Pvc sash material is in bar length, so there is no machining prep work required as in timber sashes. Making a pvc sash is a 15 minute job from start to finish, including fittings, espags ect. You,d be hard pressed to select and rip the timber for a wooden sash in that time. I have made both pvc and timber, so I am extremely familiar with both mediums.

You may be familiar with both mediums but you are quite obviously not familiar with repairs to casement or sliding sash windows.

If you have a damaged uPVC window, you have to replace it entirely whereas if you have a damaged section of a wooden window it can be fixed, this is the area I am involved with.

I have never seen a 100 year old wooden sash that had to be replaced, I repair every sash I come in contact with the only time I recommend replacement is when I come in contact with uPVC.

Colour issues in both timber and pvc may give rise to similar issues. White in the case of pvc may be a problem, as will unstained timber. Both will have seen the ravages of weather and uv light.

You are quite correct about wood having issues with UV light but you fail to mention that if a window has been painted it will protect it from UV light, also you fail to mention the life span of hardwood windows which is estimated to be 100 years.

Thank you for the welcome back

Welcome.

Hope it wasn't too hot for you

 

[sabre]

In fairness to the op, and their thread, I think the ego bashing between myself and S.L.F deviates from the initial reason for this thread. there fore after this response that has called into question my bona fides in relation to my knowledge on the subject, I would just like to out line the following facts.

1. A pvc sash does not need to be binned, as fittings are available to repair them. Side hung, top hung, hinges can be purchased, as well as espags for secure closing.
2. It is possible to fit a different extrusion profile sash into an original window, in some circumstances.

S.L.F. this is based on my 15-20 years experience in manufacture and installation of pvc products. Just as a reference, how many years have you spent in pvc manufacture.

You have also inferred that I have little knowledge of repairs to casement or sliding sash windows. So just to put your mind at rest, I have over 30 years experience in both. My family has a long history in advanced joinery, and my father is still engaged in it at the present time. I have lost count of the amount of apprentices that I have taught in modern methods of joinery, and the traditional craft. I am a fully cert qualified joiner, and a member of the leading professional body in England. So please let me assure you that I do know what I am talking about. If I did not know my stuff, I would not have held senior management positions in joineries in this country.

My initial contribution to this thread was for the reason of clarifying the inaccuracies in the posts about buying new windows if the fittings were damaged. There is no reason why this thread has now gone completely off topic, in relation to your views versus mine. I think we both owe the op an apology.

I,ve been in hotter places than this, I can post you my cv if you need it.

sabre

 

[S.L.F]

In fairness to the op, and their thread, I think the ego bashing between myself and S.L.F deviates from the initial reason for this thread. there fore after this response that has called into question my bona fides in relation to my knowledge on the subject, I would just like to out line the following facts.

The thread is about whether or not it's better to have wood or uPVC.

My ego certainly has not been bashed but if you feel yours has please let me know and I'll try to take it easy on you

1. A pvc sash does not need to be binned, as fittings are available to repair them. Side hung, top hung, hinges can be purchased, as well as espags for secure closing.

I have looked at so called modern sliding sash windows from 15 years ago with mechainisms that are jammed and will not move for love nor money and need replacing, the parts are not available.

The company that made them no longer exists.

2. It is possible to fit a different extrusion profile sash into an original window, in some circumstances.

"Some"

S.L.F. this is based on my 15-20 years experience in manufacture and installation of pvc products. Just as a reference, how many years have you spent in pvc manufacture.

The only experience I have with uPVC is tearing them out of houses and it is the only experience I require.

My initial contribution to this thread was for the reason of clarifying the inaccuracies in the posts about buying new windows if the fittings were damaged. There is no reason why this thread has now gone completely off topic, in relation to your views versus mine. I think we both owe the op an apology.

This thread has not gone off topic its about the same thing wood vs uPVC.

You are entitled to believe what I posted was innaccurate but the reality is for anybody with uPVC windows is if they get damaged they can't be repaired they have to be replaced.

The hinges and mechainisms that were around 15 years ago have changed and the various compainies that make them make different sizes and specs and they change over the course of time.

I can post you my cv if you need it.

Thanks but I think you are too old to train properly

 

[BillK]

Just an aside, but KatyG would perhaps like the view of the two professionals on whether PVC would look right in a converted barn.

 

[sabre]

Hi

My husband and I have just bought a barn conversion that was originally converted back in 2000.

The windows are currently wood single glazed, which is no good and we are looking at changing them.

Our neighbour that is in the other half of the barn conversion has put in UPVC oak effect windows, which originally we were going to put in ours due to the look of the overall barn, but on thinking about it, we prefer the look of the wooden windows with the squares, which it already has (cottage style I believe), and thought about staining them the same colour as our neightbour.



We are unsure what to do as there are so many different opinions on what is heat efficient, noise efficient etc.
The house is made of solid stone (about 1.5 foot thick), so it has no real insulation so we've got to get the right windows to help.

We live next to quite a busy road so we have got that to take into account too.

What are cost differences? Is wood more expensive?

Thanks in advance!!

K

Hi katyG,

If your neighbour already has installed oak pvc windows, maybe your choice has been made for you. As you originally thought they were ok, is it only the squares that have made you consider a different option. What in particular about the aesthetic look of the wooden windows makes you more inclined towards them. From an aesthetic point of view both pvc and wooden windows can be made in varying styles, common to both.

Maybe you should chose the style of window that appeals to you, and then approach both wooden and pvc manufacturers to see what they can offer you, and at what price. From an insulation value point of view any of the manufacturers of either pvc or timber windows should be able to give you the appropriate u values for your energy assessment of your final build.

I hope this helps.
sabre

 

[sabre]

In the case of your barn that has the extremely thick external walls, window shutters as fitted in period houses are an excellent way of improving insulation in your building.

[broken link removed]

sabre

 

[S.L.F]

Just an aside, but KatyG would perhaps like the view of the two professionals on whether PVC would look right in a converted barn.

Hi KatyG

Having seen witrh these little old eyes the absolute horror of uPVC all over the countryside my answer would always be the same.

uPVC windows are an abomination and should be outlawed.

No matter how many improvements the manufacturers make to uPVC it will always look cheap and tacky after about 10 years.

You sure as hell can't paint it properly and if you could that would defeat the whole maintenance-free sales pitch by the suits from the window companies.

If you damage a wooden window you can almost fix it yourself (if it's beyond a mere mortals ability get someone like me to work my magic).

Sure wooden windows cost more to make and install but wooden windows take longer to make so cost far far more to produce than uPVC.

For me it would always be wood first and if I have to make a second choice aluminium.

EDIT... the University of Edinburgh did a study on windows and if you read it you will see there are different solutions to the problems of single glazed windows.

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/thermal-windows.pdf

 

[sabre]

Hi KatyG,

Interesting to know that you can now buy pvc windows, with a lifetime guarantee with regards to fittings, welds, and profile materials. Might be something to consider if pvc is what you decide on.

Full Article.
[broken link removed]

Sunrise Windows & Patio Doors Warranty Information

All Sunrise windows and patio doors are covered under a lifetime transferable non-prorated warranty by sunrise. Holbrook Custom Windows provides a lifetime labor warranty for anything covered under the Sunrise Warranty EXCEPT the replacement of insulated glass

sabre