Unemployment rate

[ClubMan]

But if a person genuinely can`t find work and stays home in bed on the dole

Fine - if they are able to genuinely seek work from bed I suppose.

avoiding/evading ? tax

There's a big difference between legitimate tax planning/avoidance/financial engineering and tax evasion.

Look at denis o brien he made his money in ireland ,then declares non resident status to reduce his tax bill.

So?

Of course he worked hard getting a cancer mast in each garda stn

This is going off topic but there is no causal link between RF/electromagnetic fields and cancer so this point is totally irrelevant.

 

[Purple]

Look at denis o brien he made his money in ireland ,then declares non resident status to reduce his tax bill

He didn't just declare non-resident status; he moved to Portugal. If all you had to do was declares non-resident status then we'd all be doing it. I'm no fan of Mr O'Brien but that's a different issue. I still don’t understand why you have a problem with people who move to other countries not paying tax here. If I moved to America I would pay tax there, even if I still had an income from a business or investment here. If I have an income from the USA and live here I pay tax here. What’s unfair about that?

 

[sunrock]

Well the company that mr o brien build with his rich friends was always going to be a money spinner.He got much help from the government with approvals etc and didn`t have to erect his own mast network,instead getting his political buddies to allow him to put masts in garda stns and getting all the licences etc.
Next when this irish co. is sold, mr o brien is relocated to sunny portugal and so avoids a hefty tax bill by the irish gov.I think most people would regard this as highly unfair,as this company`s wealth was all produced in ireland and was basically a government gift . All very legal but fair? hardly.
And then we`re told to be intolerant to our 4% of our society who are unemployed..most of whom are by every posters admission unemployable and that being the case would suffer much hardship and would be charity cases if their dole was cut off.

 

[daltonr]

The problem about our super rich avoiding/evading ? tax by using tax shelters or declaring they are non resident, is it`s so blatantly unfair and sends the wrong message down the line.

At this very moment, I'm living in the USA but drawing my salary and paying Tax in Ireland. So, I guess I cancel out Denis O'Brien. Now leave him alone.

I'm always confused by why people think it's unfair that some wealthy people pay very little tax while others of more modest means pay lots.
It's called Risk and Reward.

There is nothing unetical about starting a business. Once you start a business you find you have all sorts of financial planning options that the PAYE worker doesn't, but you also lose out on all sorts of security and benefits that the PAYE worker has.

If you want to rebalance the economic rules of the nation so that the rewards of owning a business are reduced then less people will create businesses, and your PAYE paying friends will suddenly find themselves on the dole lines that started this thread.

The entrepreneurs will still do as well as they ever did, but their businesses will be in other countries, and so will their own tax and the tax of everyone they employ.

-Rd

 

[auto320]

The fact that a man may be almost just as well off on welfare than on low wages ....well can you blame him for choosing welfare... especially if he maybe works part time or works a few months on and off.And to be quite honest i don`t see the harm in it.

Amygdala
If there was an accurate breakdown of unemployment figures then the issue could be debated more clearly.
For example: young able physically/mentally, single and no dependents-Very hard to justify receiving welfare without attending some form of training course. However change any of the parameters and the situation becomes more complex.

If somebody is working part time and not declaring it, I do see the harm in it.

The poster who made the suggestion that an accurate breakdown of figures would help the issue be debated more clearly is right, but that's the whole point. No politician is even going to ask for those statistics to be made part of any debate, lest he or she be seen as anti-slacker. It just isn't done to criticise the percentage who abuse the system, and this allows them to get away with itr.

 

[shnaek]

It's called Risk and Reward.

Hear hear. The rich in Ireland contribute a large proportion of income tax - unfortunately I can't remember the figures so I can't quote them, but it is quite large. Even though I earn the average wage I am all for the risk and reward principal. There is no incentive to push yourself and to take the jump otherwise.

Also, if the option were available to the average worker not to pay tax or to pay it, what do you think they would chose to do? People pay because they have to, not because they want to. So it is somewhat hypocritical to criticise O'Brien et al for not paying, when we should criticise the law for allowing that to happen.

 

[sunrock]

When i suggested that people on part time work ,and people working for a few months on and a few months unemployed would be tempted to go on the dole.....
I did not mean that they would work and draw the dole at the same time.
That would be illegal.
Part time workers have such low earnings typically, that they might be as well off on the dole.
Others who work hard for a few weeks/months and then have a month off .....well it`s such a hassle signing on and off especially as new work might come in any day.
However i do believe our social welfare laws are fair and do provide a safety net for our less fortunate.
I don`t want to harp on about the likes of denis o brien.and his type....maybe it`s the tax law is wrong.....soon to be changed i believe.
I`M ALL FOR irish entreprenuers, and believe they should be rewarded for their risk.....but at the same rate as an irish builder or an irish manufacturing company.

 

[ClubMan]

Others who work hard for a few weeks/months and then have a month off .....well it`s such a hassle signing on and off especially as new work might come in any day.

Do you mean have a month off voluntarily in which case it's called a holiday and not a period of unemployment!

I don`t want to harp on about the likes of denis o brien.and his type....

Really? Could have fooled me!

maybe it`s the tax law is wrong.....soon to be changed i believe.
I`M ALL FOR irish entreprenuers, and believe they should be rewarded for their risk.....but at the same rate as an irish builder or an irish manufacturing company.

Why should all entrepreneurs be rewarded at the same rate?

 

[Purple]

However i do believe our social welfare laws are fair and do provide a safety net for our less fortunate.

I agree

 

[RainyDay]

I'm always confused by why people think it's unfair that some wealthy people pay very little tax while others of more modest means pay lots.
It's called Risk and Reward.

The reward ratio on tax avoidance schemes like S23 property has little to do with the risk involved.

 

[daltonr]

The reward ratio on tax avoidance schemes like S23 property has little to do with the risk involved.

It's not the fault of the investor if the government are too stupid to set up the rules of the game correctly. It would be the fault of the investors if they were too stupid to take advantage.

In any case, when the issue of tax avoidance comes up it's names like O'Brien and Smurfitt that get mentioned. These people didn't make their fortunes from S23 schemes.

Nobody seems to have a problem with tax avoidance when it applies to themselves, pension contributions etc. They only get upset when it's rich people doing the avoiding. Well most of the rich people are rich for a reason, so get over it. Contact your government if you care so much about it (they won't listen to you, but at least you'll be directing your anger in the right direction).

Legally avoiding tax, is not wrong, unpatriotic, immoral, unethical, or in any other way bad. It doesn't matter how rich you are, it doesn't matter how little tax you pay, and it doesn't matter how famous or infamous you are.

Governments make the rules of the game. The only people who have questions to answer are those who break the rules.

The really infuriating thing about this issue is that virtually every person who moans about tax avoidance are doing it themselves to some extent. Is it just sour grapes that they haven't figured out how to avoid as much? I don't know.

I wonder how many cheques the Dept. of Finance have ever received from people handing back the tax breaks received on pension contributions, or mortgage interest relief?

-Rd

 

[z108]

The figure for those truly unemployed is in reality even lower than the number of people claiming.
There still exists a black economy for example in the building companies where some people might be (for example) using the name of a relative who emigrated decades ago to work legally while simultaneously claiming unemployment assistance under their real name.
There are many scams which the system cant see and the number of possible scams is limitless especially those which were set up before computerisation became widespread and have been passively accepted without audit by the system for years.

 

[z107]

There's a big difference between legitimate tax planning/avoidance/financial engineering and tax evasion.

Is there really?
These rules are generally arbitrary. Some people break the rules and others can afford good accountants.