Time to repeal the abortion ban in Ireland

But is it more selfish to abort the baby than to allow it be adopted by people who long for a child and will give it a great life?

In reality, how many underage mothers from under-privileged areas put their children up for adoption? Very few! Instead many of them bring a child into life of poverty and set a very poor example by missing out on education and personal growth by often sponging off the state / tax payer. That's why most adopted children come from abroad, not from Ireland.


No offence, but I find those comparisons ridiculous. Everyone's circumstances change at some point in their lives without being given much choice. My thoughts were more about people who willingly chose to have children where there is a known high risk of genetic disorder(s), long term poverty without much prospect of improvement, etc. I know of a family of disabled parents who have already lost two children to genetic disorders they were warned about and are now expecting their third which was confirmed to have spina bifida. It just doesn't feel fair to a poor child.

In terms of 'it's my body', it is the mother who suffers the most. I am not there just yet but from what I've seen and been told at ante-natal classes, childbirth is one of if not the most painful things a woman can experience. Before that, try 6 moths of utter discomfort where your skin feels too small, there is no comfortable position for anything and spending half the night in the bathroom. I was lucky to escape morning sickness altogether but even without it, pregnancy has been incredibly uncomfortable for me. It's my body that is suffering. My son is snug as a bug with nothing to worry about. Then when the child is born, think of sleepless nights, cracked nipples and all the rest. It should be a woman's choice whether she wants to go through all that. Some women are simply not interested in having children, don't crave unconditional love of a child or simply don't feel either physically or emotionally able to cope with such enormous change.

There are so many scenarios which do not involve killing poor people on the streets or putting down children whose parents are out of work for a week or two. I already stated that I am pro-choice and am very passionate about this issue in general. For those reasons alone, I wish people of both sides took a minute to think with only scientific and social facts in mind. Only then we can have a fair and balanced debate.
 

The point you made was that it's 'selfish' of someone to have a baby when they can't afford it or are not in a position to look after it and that it was far less selfish to have an abortion. My point is that, if selfishness is the concern, then the solution is to have the baby and allow it to be brought up by someone else. I just don't buy this idea that people have an abortion out of selflessness and because they don't want the baby to be brought up in poverty. There are other solutions that don't involve abortion. They do, however, involve inconvenience and emotional suffering for the mother, but I don't think this is a reason to terminate the pregnancy as I think the unborn baby has the right to life.
 

Or look at it the other way.

I Know this is an emotional subject so no offence to anyone intended, but in general, stillborn babies are often given a funeral.

I've never heard of this happening in the case of miscarriages though. Clearly many people make distinctions then for whatever reason.
 
Perhaps you could expand on the different moral considerations - morally, why would you want to see abortion in Ireland (given that it happens in other countries) but not FGM (which also happens in other countries)?

I dont want to drag this off topic but FGM is a culturally accepted practice in some cultures. Usually it is carried out for cultural/spiritual beliefs. In most cases its less a case of informed consent as the woman involved is a minor, and more a case of a community accepted norm, with a widespread belief that terrible things will happen if its not done. Im not in favour of any practice carried out in the name of religion or spirits or demons etc...Nor am I in favour of body mutilation practices carried out on minors.
However if an adult female wanted to have FGM performed upon her in Ireland I would support her choice to do so.

Abortion is a choice made by an adult female - and I support her choice to do so. No doubt this will draw comments of 'what about abortion for a 16 year old minor etc....'. In that specific case then the minors parent would be responsible for medical decisions (as they are today).


This is really just being pedantic, obviously if a newborn is neglected they will die. Im not talking about neglect. A newborn will not die as a result of just being outside of the womb but a fetus will. The very nature of its potential for life is dependant on being inside a womb.


Perhaps massive is the wrong word to use, if you consider an ICU massive medical intervention. I should have used the term extraordinary medical intervention, including highly sophisticated labs, scientists, teams of doctors, fake wombs etc...

The 'norm' for a newborn or near newborn is that their potential for life is not dependant on being in the womb.
 
They do, however, involve inconvenience and emotional suffering for the mother, but I don't think this is a reason to terminate the pregnancy as I think the unborn baby has the right to life.

What about in the case of rape or incest? What about the situation where the foetus is not viable? Do you think a pregnancy in these situations is an inconvenience?
 
In terms of 'it's my body', it is the mother who suffers the most.

???? I dont think you could compare "cracked nipples" etc. with death in terms of suffering.
 
What about in the case of rape or incest? What about the situation where the foetus is not viable? Do you think a pregnancy in these situations is an inconvenience?


They're extreme situations. I was replying to Yachtie's general points where she mentioned the inconveniences of pregnancy. And I did acknowledge there was emotional suffering involved in an unwanted pregnancy, which you have conveniently left out of your post. To be honest, I've stated my point of view and I don't want to get into a stand off on this. I think this thread is just going to go around and around in circles.
 
It's not a nice tangent or subject but I think I made a valid and relevant point (post #83)

Do those opposed to abortion have any comment?
 
It's not a nice tangent or subject but I think I made a valid and relevant point (post #83)

Do those opposed to abortion have any comment?

Caveat that was a relevant point, I am not opposed to abortion but will offer my view anyway.

With a stillborn baby there is a physical entity that is visible to people. With a miscarriage (depending on what stage it happens) there may not be anything definable that looks like a body, it could be so small that its virtually invisible or indistinguishable to an untrained medical eye.

I believe that the human brain finds it difficult to confer personhood in real situations like this where they can see nothing definable as a person, whereas when speaking about a fetus in the womb a mental image is formed of a 'baby' - even though the reality of what is being spoken of has no bearing on the mental image.
 
The Church doesn't deny a funeral to miscarried babies. Parents are free to request a funeral. Parents of miscarried children usually don't request a funeral and where they do, I think they usually want it kept very private and held in the hospital Chapel.
 
Parents of miscarried children usually don't request a funeral and where they do, I think they usually want it kept very private and held in the hospital Chapel.

Does that happen often? I only know of one case personally and they were not offered a funeral, but a blessing service by the hospital chaplin.
 

I think you might be missing the point - it's not a matter of the church denying or agreeing to anything.

What I'm talking about is the "it's a life" argument.

An 8 week miscarriage or an 8 week abortion.

Miscarriage is not treated in the same way as a stillbirth either by the parents or by society in general. The general anti-abortion stance should dictate that they are.
 
Does that happen often? I only know of one case personally and they were not offered a funeral, but a blessing service by the hospital chaplin.

To be honest, I'm not sure how often it happens. I don't think it's usually called a funeral but a Mass of the Angels which is a funeral mass that can be said for a, stillborn, miscarried or aborted baby, or even for a very young Child who has died.
 

Caveat

I'm not a theologian but I think the view is that very, very young children don't need a Mass as they have died in a state of grace. People of stillborn children probably choose to have a Mass as there is a body to bury. With a miscarriage this is often not the case.
 
Miscarriage is not treated in the same way as a stillbirth either by the parents or by society in general. The general anti-abortion stance should dictate that they are.
What happens after miscarriage is very much down to the couple concerned. In many cases, there is simply no option to have a funeral, regardless of the couple's wishes as there are no physical remains to be buried. It is (as you have pointed out) an occasion of huge trauma and pain for many couples, and not an occasion where people will be at their most logical or controlled. There is no physical benefit to the child/foetus in carrying out a funeral.

An abortion is a very different situation.
 
What happens after miscarriage is very much down to the couple concerned. In many cases, there is simply no option to have a funeral, regardless of the couple's wishes as there are no physical remains to be buried.

This is not always the case.

There is no physical benefit to the child/foetus in carrying out a funeral.

Strange way of putting it.

An abortion is a very different situation.

Of course it is, but if an aborted foetus of e.g. 12 weeks is a 'life' or even a 'baby' (as many would argue) I don't see how a miscarriage of 12 weeks should be regarded any differently - but it certainly seems to be.

The funeral was just an example but indicative of the difference in attitude between miscarriages and stillbirths. TBH, whether or not there are much physical remains to be buried shouldn't have anything to do with it IMO.

Edit: Anyway, I said a few pages ago that I wasn't going to get into this again and I'm sorry I did.

I've nothing more to add (again)
 
Edit: Anyway, I said a few pages ago that I wasn't going to get into this again and I'm sorry I did.

I've nothing more to add (again)

Im back to what I said in post#8:
it is a matter of opinion for an individual when they believe life begins

No matter where this debate goes, this is what is always comes back to and there is no way of budging either side.

Im done too.
 
Me also. As the person who posed the original question is no longer allowed post, perhaps it is time to close this thread?