Threatened nurses strike

[oopsbuddy]

There's a serious anti-public service (no matter what section) sentiment running through this debate, and as a life-long private sector worker, with close links to many nurses, I can see both sides.

However, in respect of the nurses, Their demands have been in the public arena for a very, very long time, and frustration has reached boiling point. Who else has had to wait 27 years for a recommendation on working hours to be implemented. That's more than half a working life time...and still waiting! Who else is expected to have supervisory control and management responsibility for employees who receive more money for less hours and are less qualified...and be happy about it? Why is the holy grail of 'bench-marking' expected to keep workers happy when it perpetuates the perceived pay inequalities between different public sector employees which they seek to have remedied? Any public sector job will be looked at enviously by those who do not have the same benefits (the grass is always greener...) but a 50% pension for a full 40 years service isn't that hectic, and there are no bonuses, no other benefits, weekend shifts, 12 hour days, night shifts etc, and they even have to pay (in full) for their own Christmas party! But that's only one part of this issue. One of the most important issues is the stressful working conditions which are endured. These people deal with life and death situations daily, and if you are the type of person who is compassionate enough to want to work in an area that provides care and help for people who are ill and at their most vulnerable, you don't necessarily become immune to it, you just have to cope with more and more of it. And when you get really angry and fed up that there are not enough staff to help you cope with the increasing workload, and you are forced to decide to either stay on and persevere (and hopefully get rewarded adequately for your efforts), or quit, and you are criticised by those who have never worked in similar circumstances....what would you do? Try working for one day in their shoes and then feel free to criticise them for their easy lifestyle and "greed" for more pay. Alternatively, let them throw in the towel completely and see what's left afterwards. I, for one, would not (COULD not) do what they do, and I think they deserve everything they are demanding. But that's just my opinion!

 

[Purple]

However, in respect of the nurses, Their demands have been in the public arena for a very, very long time, and frustration has reached boiling point. Who else has had to wait 27 years for a recommendation on working hours to be implemented. That's more than half a working life time...and still waiting!

Just because somebody asks for something for 27 years it does not follow that they should get it.

Who else is expected to have supervisory control and management responsibility for employees who receive more money for less hours and are less qualified...and be happy about it?

Can you give examples?

Why is the holy grail of 'bench-marking' expected to keep workers happy when it perpetuates the perceived pay inequalities between different public sector employees which they seek to have remedied? Any public sector job will be looked at enviously by those who do not have the same benefits (the grass is always greener...) but a 50% pension for a full 40 years service isn't that hectic, and there are no bonuses, no other benefits, weekend shifts, 12 hour days, night shifts etc,

Nurses get shift and weekend allowances in line with Gardaí, prison officers and fire brigade personnel. The allowances are also pensionable. There are other perks like career breaks, paid sick days, a short working week (39 hours) by private sector standards, job security etc. As for a 50% pension, no public sector pension scheme is self funding therefore nurses pay is effectively topped up by X amount in the form of a pension payment. Benchmarking is expected to keep workers happy because they signed up to it and should have the integrity to honour their own agreements.

But that's only one part of this issue. One of the most important issues is the stressful working conditions which are endured.

More stressful than the Gardaí, who are expected to put themselves in harms way or the fire service who are expected to enter burning buildings?

These people deal with life and death situations daily,

No they don’t. Nurses are neither qualified or expected to make any life and death decisions. Ever. They may have to assist the doctor who is dealing with the situation but that’s not the same thing.

if you are the type of person who is compassionate enough to want to work in an area that provides care and help for people who are ill and at their most vulnerable, you don't necessarily become immune to it, you just have to cope with more and more of it.

I agree but that’s the nature of the job and they knew that when they took it on.

And when you get really angry and fed up that there are not enough staff to help you cope with the increasing workload, and you are forced to decide to either stay on and persevere (and hopefully get rewarded adequately for your efforts), or quit, and you are criticised by those who have never worked in similar circumstances....what would you do?

How about asking for more staff at the existing wages (some of the highest in Europe) instead of a 25% hourly pay rise.

Try working for one day in their shoes and then feel free to criticise them for their easy lifestyle and "greed" for more pay. Alternatively, let them throw in the towel completely and see what's left afterwards. I, for one, would not (COULD not) do what they do, and I think they deserve everything they are demanding. But that's just my opinion!

I never said they had an easy lifestyle. I simply suggested that they have had pay increases far above the average for the last 10 years and a 25% hourly rate increase is unreasonable and would be economically suicidal for this country as there would be a knock on through the whole public sector.

 

[Gordanus]

Just because somebody asks for something for 27 years it does not follow that they should get it.

It was recommended that they get it 27 years ago!

How about asking for more staff at the existing wages (some of the highest in Europe) instead of a 25% hourly pay rise.

I believe that Irish nurses pay is 5th highest in Europe (of nurses pay) when the calculation is made using what you can buy with your Euro. (Don't know the actual source for this, but it was given on Morning Ireland during the week.)

 

[nelly]

It was recommended that they get it 27 years ago!

does anyone have a copy of what the labour court actually ruled on this?

 

[Megan]

Just heard a nurse speaking on Liveline and the general feeling seems to be that patients are being look after better now then before the strike. Maybe we should just continue with the ban on nurses using phones and they will get to do the work they are meant to be doing that is looking after patients. Could clerical staff do the paper work envolved on a ward.

 

[oopsbuddy]

Again, I apologise for not "multi-quoting, so I will try and answer Purple's points as clearly as possible:

Just because somebody asks for something for 27 years it does not follow that they should get it..

It was recommended by the Labour Court in 1981 that nurses should be the first to benefit from a 35-hour week.

"Can you give examples?.

I asked for the examples of where else such a situation would be tolerated! I refer you to care assistants mentioned in an earlier post, a point which was reiterated by Liam Doran.

Benchmarking is expected to keep workers happy because they signed up to it and should have the integrity to honour their own agreements. .

So are you now suggesting that nurses are dishonest as well as greedy, and that they have no grounds for feeling disgruntled with the way their demands have been treated in the past?

More stressful than the Gardaí, who are expected to put themselves in harms way or the fire service who are expected to enter burning buildings?.

...every day? I did not bring these categories into the argument, I'm only referring to nurses. But as you mention the Gardai, how on earth did they get away with that shambolic and despicably dishonest "blue flu" day - answer - because they have a far stronger and more influential lobbying position.

No they don’t. Nurses are neither qualified or expected to make any life and death decisions. Ever. They may have to assist the doctor who is dealing with the situation but that’s not the same thing..

Again, read my post Purple! There is a difference between working in life and death situations and having to make life and death decisions. Not all deaths take place in the presence of a doctor either, with nurses standing by waiting for the doctor's 'decisions'. Consider hospice and community cases, less high profile, but nurses dealing with patients who are dying, and their grieving relatives, sometimes slow and painful deaths.

I agree but that’s the nature of the job and they knew that when they took it on..

So the only options you would afford them is put up with it or get out! Many are getting out! Where does that leave your next point?

How about asking for more staff at the existing wages (some of the highest in Europe) instead of a 25% hourly pay rise..

Where are these extra nurses to come from? There have been demands for years to provide more nurses, but allied to that is the need to pay more to nurses to attract more people to the profession.

I never said they had an easy lifestyle. I simply suggested that they have had pay increases far above the average for the last 10 years and a 25% hourly rate increase is unreasonable and would be economically suicidal for this country as there would be a knock on through the whole public sector.

I did not say YOU presonally alleged that they had an easy lifestyle, although your position certainly suggests that you cannot understand why they are not perfectly content with it.

 

[RainyDay]

Nurses get shift and weekend allowances in line with Gardaí, prison officers and fire brigade personnel. The allowances are also pensionable.

Are you certain about the pensionability issue? I was speaking to another healthcare worker recently (not a nurse) whose main gripe was that her shift allowances (which make up 30%-40% of her take home pay) were not pensionable.

 

[joe sod]

Well 27 years ago was 1980, 3 years after the 1977 give away budget. They thought in 1980 fianna fail would give in after they gave so much away in 1977. Its the same reason that they have ressurected this again after 27 years because they think the government will cave in. I don't think it was too high on their agenda in 1999 because they knew well that they would not get it and that it would damage their other claims. It is the worsening economic backround that has really tied the governments hands this time. Fianna Fail has come under heavy criticism for years about its waste of public money and fear of public service unions.

 

[ashambles]

The wool pulling relates to the comparison of the figure calculated in this way to the 'average industrial wage'

Are you certain about this - the comparison is between earnings not wages on both sides so it's a fair comparison - 54k earnings for the nurses 32k earnings for the industrial workers.

The CSO define

Gross Earnings:
This is defined as the gross amount paid to employees before deduction of income tax, PRSI, etc. including overtime, service pay, shift and other allowances, commissions, production and regular bonuses, etc. Irregular bonuses, back-pay and redundancy payments are excluded.

[broken link removed]

In 2005 the average male industrial earnings was 32k according to the CSO, including overtime which quickly dries up in a slowdown. The average nurse earnings was 54k including overtime which will not easily dry up - especially when they get a 35 hr week.

 

[RainyDay]

Are you certain about this - the comparison is between earnings not wages on both sides so it's a fair comparison - 54k earnings for the nurses 32k earnings for the industrial workers.

The unfairness relates to the selection of individuals to be included in the calculation. On the nurses side, they included Directors of Nursing and other senior staff. On the industry side, I strongly suspect that they did NOT include production directors and operation managers etc.

 

[Delboy]

Was it Marc Brehony of the Irish Times on The Last Word yesterday who said that according to the OECD figures, Ireland has 13 nurses per 1000 population. France,1 of the countries we aspire to match in terms of a health service, has a rate of 7 per 1000!!!!
To me the fact that we have 40,000 nurses in such a small country is crazy....are we all really that 'ill' as a nation.
Matt Cooper said, and I agree with him, is that there are so many nurses coming here from abroad and they are obviously happy with the hours and wages. And a lot of the Irish nurses dont work full weeks anyway as reduced weeks better suits those with families etc.

The 35 hour week is crippling France and it's economy. The new president is going to have to tackle this when elected if France is to regain competitiveness. And what is happening in Ireland right now.....certain areas of the public service are on 35 hours and the rest are scrambling to join them. And them all in their secure jobs with fantastic pensions!!!

To finish I'll mention an article that Constatin Gurdgiev had in the Sunday Tribune on 27th March about our inefficient public service, and in particular the Health Service:
"Effectively, these numbers mean that if public services, like health, were delivered with the same efficiency as the average productivity attained in private sector, Ireland could have had the same quality of health services for approximately 57% less in public expenditure"

The study was conducted by the University of Groningen with support from the EU.

 

[Amygdala]

Ireland has 13 nurses per 1000 population. France,1 of the countries we aspire to match in terms of a health service, has a rate of 7 per 1000!!!!

Here there are no nursing assistants where in france I believe there are 2:1 nursing assistants:nurses.
It is always important to put quoted figures in the proper context for a well informed debate.
It would also be useful if someone could clarify the fact that the average industrial wage does include all those with third level degress and all levels of management!!!!!!!!!

 

[oopsbuddy]

The 35 hour week is crippling France and it's economy. The new president is going to have to tackle this when elected if France is to regain competitiveness. And what is happening in Ireland right now.....certain areas of the public service are on 35 hours and the rest are scrambling to join them. And them all in their secure jobs with fantastic pensions!!!


Here's a suggestion then - get all those who are on 35 hours now to go back to 39 (like the nurses). I'm sure they'll all agree easily enough! Otherwise, don't give the nurses a hard time for wanting the same working hours as their OT, speech therapist, physio colleagues, etc. They're all degree educated after all, and don't tell me that their responsibilities are less important than their counterparts mentioned above (no disrespect to them whatsoever).

 

[RainyDay]

Was it Marc Brehony of the Irish Times .....article that Constatin Gurdgiev had in the Sunday Tribune on 27th March about our inefficient public service,

Let's not expect to get balanced views from Mark Coleman or Constantin Gurdgiev both of whom earn their living by taking fairly extreme right-wing positions on all matters.

 

[rabbit]

Let's not expect to get balanced views from Mark Coleman or Constantin Gurdgiev both of whom earn their living by taking fairly extreme right-wing positions on all matters.

I would not describe them as taking fairly extreme right-wing positions on all matters. I quote from above :

"Effectively, these numbers mean that if public services, like health, were delivered with the same efficiency as the average productivity attained in private sector, Ireland could have had the same quality of health services for approximately 57% less in public expenditure"

The study was conducted by the University of Groningen with support from the EU.

 

[RainyDay]

I would not describe them as taking fairly extreme right-wing positions on all matters. I quote from above :

"Effectively, these numbers mean that if public services, like health, were delivered with the same efficiency as the average productivity attained in private sector, Ireland could have had the same quality of health services for approximately 57% less in public expenditure"

The study was conducted by the University of Groningen with support from the EU.

I rest my case.

 

[dodo]

My slant on the nurses, first thing they are not the best nurses in the world, I am sure the French, German, Swedish nurses would have something to say about that, we here in Ireland always say we have best consultants, doctors, teachers etc which is quite annoying , first thing they knew what they where getting themselves in for when they became nurses, they want a reduction of working hours and 10% raise which including the drop in hours works out not far of 20% increase when you take all into account. They do have a tough job but so does the bin man. It is Doctors who save lives in most cases that is why they are on such good money not enough in my view.The current nurses would have to do overtime to fill gap the hours they want reduced, so they would end up getting paid OT rate on the hours they want to reduce sounds a bit mad Ted I'm thinking.Someone has to fill the reduced hours and they are not going to hired nurses to do that.

 

[soy]

Here's a suggestion then - get all those who are on 35 hours now to go back to 39 (like the nurses).

Exactly - No wonder the nurses are feel hard done by when they have to do 39 hours yet the rest of the health service is on 35 hours. I have no objection to the nurses getting their pay rise but do not support the reduction in hours.

The government should set about getting all the others back onto 39 hours.

 

[joe sod]

I think it would be a good idea to allow nurses with 3 or 4 years experience to train as doctors. I think they should be able to do this without going through the points system. I think it would be good to have good nurses given the option to become doctors. I think the medical council's strangle hold on the training of doctors should end.

 

[KalEl]

I support the nurses completely.
It's ridiculous to have highly educated professionals earning less and working longer hours than their subordinates. Nurses are victims of their own innate goodness and the government/HSE have taken advantage of this for years. Many good nurses are leaving to work as medical reps purely for financial reasons. The improved pay and conditions would stem this brain drain and benefit patients.