Threatened nurses strike

[Sunny]

It does nobody any favours using this quote as a soundbite. We often dismiss things as "not being brain surgery". Well this is brain surgery!
The dissemination of this quote by tabloid media is designed to annoy Joe Public and turn them against the consultants. The HSE and Mary Harney are being Goebbels like citing this, and with claims that nurses are endangering lives...they are not.
€205,000 is not mickey mouse money. However, for a consultant it obviously is. I don't have a problem with that. People should stop using it as some sign of the consultant's detachment from reality...it's just market forces.

Its not market forces. They are trying to protect a cosy monopoly that they have oeprated for years. No-body is forcing these guys to sign the contracts but they are trying to block anyone from Ireland, UK, Europe who considers it to be a fair salary from applying.
Check out the website http://www.ihca.ie/ for their reasons for telling doctors not to apply for the new jobs are see what type of world they work in. They are detached from reality and they are holding the health service to ransom

 

[KalEl]

Its not market forces. They are trying to protect a cosy monopoly that they have oeprated for years. No-body is forcing these guys to sign the contracts but they are trying to block anyone from Ireland, UK, Europe who considers it to be a fair salary from applying.
Check out the website http://www.ihca.ie/ for their reasons for telling doctors not to apply for the new jobs are see what type of world they work in. They are detached from reality and they are holding the health service to ransom

"Your rate of pay will be less than that of existing consultants"

Sounds like a good enough reason to me to object. If this were overseas workers being brought in to work for less money than Irish workers in the ESB the bleeding heart agenda would be up in arms.
The fact that were talking about €200K isn't relevant...they're entitled to call it a mickey-mouse offer if that's what it is relatively.

 

[Sunny]

"Your rate of pay will be less than that of existing consultants"

Sounds like a good enough reason to me to object. If this were overseas workers being brought in to work for less money than Irish workers in the ESB the bleeding heart agenda would be up in arms.
The fact that were talking about €200K isn't relevant...they're entitled to call it a mickey-mouse offer if that's what it is relatively.

You see it is attitudes like this that amaze me. It would be like me dictating to my employer who they can hire and on what terms. If the government are offering €200,000 and people decide to work for that salary, what right have exisiting consultants to interfere in the process and practically warn people not to apply. They also earn more 50% more than their UK counterparts and when asked to explain the reasoning on Morning Ireland the IHCA said it was because we wanted the best in this country. So I guess our consultants are 50% better than the ones in the UK. We are so lucky.

 

[Guest127]

nurses are stating that they are now a degree course. and they are. the 'newer' nurses that is. If teachers get extra pay for having a degree ( they do) then give the nurses with the degrees the same for this degree as a teacher. older nurses wouldn't get anything but then they are much further on the pay scale.
as for the 35 hour week. can't be done cash neutral. so maybe over a period of 3 years aim for .5 of an hour reduction each year. this would leave a 37.50 hour week in by 2010.. which I understand is pretty much the normal in the public service.
compromise all round.

 

[Headachecity]

Did anyone listen to the editor of the Star on Gerry Ryan this morning?. Major food for thought on the Nurses strike. I blame the HSE & Mary Harney. It's a tough job and the salary scale of Nurses is really crap for what they do & I certainly think they should be given their payrise. We need them at some stage of our lives, it's inevitable. I think they press are being unfair to them. I don't agree with walking off the job though it's really bad form, if one of my family was ill in hospital and the nurse walked away I would tie her the drip!
I am not going to even start on the consultants, if I do there is a possibility I would time out the whole site!

 

[RainyDay]

I thought that they were supposed to avoid most or all "admin" duties which would presumably make her callbacks a circumvention of the union directives since they should be done by some clerical lackey?

I thought that the work-to-rule was simply not answering phones and not using IT systems. The nurses must be still doing paperwork (patient notes, drug records), and I can't see how the many nurses in advisory roles (breastfeeding advisors, counsellors, etc) could operate at all if they weren't able to make phone calls.

I would like those in the public sector to spend a year in an SME that competes in a totally open market with companies all over the world. I have worked 55 hours so far this week. I will get on a plane this afternoon for an 8-hour flight and arrive back in Dublin airport at 7.30 on Tuesday morning. I will be in work by 8.45 and hope to finish at 6.30 that evening. It’s a business trip so I might have to stay on for a few more days. There is nothing unusual about this week for me. My wife works full time and we have three small children. A change to tax laws in the USA or a war or a currency collapse or some other upheaval might wipe my company out. I don’t just have to worry about being able to pay my mortgage; I also have a responsibility to make sure the guys who work for me can pay theirs.

Give that man a medal! Just for the record, there are many busy people in the public sector. Many of them leave home early and get back late. Many of them travel on business and get back to work afterwards. Many of them have worked in the private sector, and many people switch to/from private and public sector. Yes, those of us in the public do have increased (though not absolute) job security, and many of us have paid a price (like the 30% cut in salary I took) for this security. It's not a different world out there, just a different stream in the same world.

 

[Marion]

The sooner the role, duties and responsibilities of professional nurses are properly defined the better it will be for everybody.

Nurses state that benchmarking did them no favours last time. One can only conclude that their submission to the benchmarking body regarding their role duties responsibilities and qualifications must not have been strong enough.

They are being advised to get back into benchmarking to pursue their pay claim.

Unless they change their submission I can’t see how benchmarking round 2 can help them.

Marion

 

[levelpar]

They even have to pay for their own Christmas party!

Jeez? This is shocking. I hope the nurses include this issue in their negotiations.
By the way, if nurses have been "run off their feet" for years due to shortage of staff, what will happen when they work only 35 hours?

 

[nelly]

mod's - can this thread be split as it is discussing 2+ seperate issues and its long enough already.
just a suggestion.

 

[Purple]

Give that man a medal! Just for the record, there are many busy people in the public sector. Many of them leave home early and get back late. Many of them travel on business and get back to work afterwards. Many of them have worked in the private sector, and many people switch to/from private and public sector. Yes, those of us in the public do have increased (though not absolute) job security, and many of us have paid a price (like the 30% cut in salary I took) for this security. It's not a different world out there, just a different stream in the same world.

Thanks very much, a medal would be lovely
I fully accept that there are those in the public sector who work just as hard as me, or harder and have just as much or more responsibility. I'm sure some of them also get paid less. I know that you have moved from the private sector to the public sector, and as you say you have taken a 30% pay cut. Are you 30% worse off or in the context of the overall package is 30% less gross pay a good deal? If so is it then fair to say that in the context of an overall package that is generally better in non-direct pay areas is it justifiable that gross pay in the public sector should be lower than gross pay in the private sector? This is not the case at present and yet many in the public sector want large pay increases. The nurses are the first, the teachers have taken their place behind them and they will not be alone. I say this because it's exactly what happened in the late 90's, just before public spending went out of control and our loss of economic competitiveness accelerated like mad.

 

[RainyDay]

I know that you have moved from the private sector to the public sector, and as you say you have taken a 30% pay cut. Are you 30% worse off or in the context of the overall package is 30% less gross pay a good deal? If so is it then fair to say that in the context of an overall package that is generally better in non-direct pay areas is it justifiable that gross pay in the public sector should be lower than gross pay in the private sector?

I am certainly 30% worse off on net monthly income, and I'm probably down another 15% of gross income due to absence of bonus/stock. But I'm also working about 30% less hours, so in terms of lifestyle, I've no doubt that I'm better off!

But that happens to be my lifestyle choice. In terms of the overall point, I think that few jobs are comparable between public and private sector. Some of the standard 'office' roles, like HR/IT/Finance may have some comparison, but for the teachers/nurses/Gardai, the public sector set the standard and the private sector follow.

 

[Purple]

I am certainly 30% worse off on net monthly income, and I'm probably down another 15% of gross income due to absence of bonus/stock. But I'm also working about 30% less hours, so in terms of lifestyle, I've no doubt that I'm better off!

That's my point; comparisons made solely on pay don't tell the full story. I appreciate that you had the choice and were in a position to make a lifestyle choice and that is not always the case. I don't think it's appropriate to talk about one posters circumstances in too much depth, particularly when they are a moderator, so I'll try to keep things more general. Apologies if I've asked for too much detail.

But that happens to be my lifestyle choice. In terms of the overall point, I think that few jobs are comparable between public and private sector. Some of the standard 'office' roles, like HR/IT/Finance may have some comparison, but for the teachers/nurses/Gardai, the public sector set the standard and the private sector follow.

I agree that there is no real equivalent in the private sector of teachers, nurses or Gardaí but I stand by my basic point that in an economy that is overheated and becoming more and more uncompetitive every day we cannot, as a country, afford to start paying large increases to tens or hundreds of thousands of public sector employees. I also stand by my point that no well represented and well organised group in this country is justified in looking for a 25% increase in their hourly rate of pay.

 

[nelly]

So Liam Doran is backing down? i thought he said that he was not going tin talks unless a date for the 35 hour week was on the table.
Hope this spells the end as i think whatever way you look at it, it is very disruptive to the country.

 

[RainyDay]

we cannot, as a country, afford to start paying large increases to tens or hundreds of thousands of public sector employees. I also stand by my point that no well represented and well organised group in this country is justified in looking for a 25% increase in their hourly rate of pay.

I stand by my point that this is not a one-sided issue. There is a downside of the current situation, in terms of poor retention of experienced nurses and morale of a important workforce.

 

[Purple]

I stand by my point that this is not a one-sided issue. There is a downside of the current situation, in terms of poor retention of experienced nurses and morale of a important workforce.

I agree but the solution proposed b the Nurses is unreasonable and will do more damage to the country.
According to RTE 1500 procedures have been cancelled due to work stoppages. The INO is attempting to use their position to bully the people of Ireland. I hope Mary Harney maintains her courageous stance and continues to do the right thing.

 

[micamaca]

How come when procedures are cancelled due to shortage of staff, shortage of beds, shortage of medical equipment etc Mary Harney and the HSE are quick to justify it. How many times did we see Mary Harney on the news in the last year saying 'they were doing their best' and their best included hundreds of people on hospital trollies for days and they were the lucky ones.

But when the nurses cause shortgages or upheaval on a temporary basis, the HSE and Mary Harney condemn it...

Isn't this a bit two-faced of them?

I'm not sure who is right on this one, since I have never been a nurse nor a politician. But we had kind and caring nurses caring for a loved one and it does make you appreciate the hard work they do...I'm sure most of us have no idea how hard it is to be patient and caring whils't dealing with difficult situations every day in it would appear for the most part under-resourced or badly managed hospitals.

When you think of how quickly politicians give themselves a huge raise every single year, that has no reflection on the cost of living, it does make my blood boil that the rest of the country have to put up with measly crumbs being tossed from the table.

 

[polaris]

There is a downside of the current situation, in terms of poor retention of experienced nurses and morale of a important workforce.

The solution then is to give pay increases to experienced nurses at more senior grades rather than across the board payrises for all nurses.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the starting salary for a newly graduated nurse is excellent and if the scale after that is too flat then it should be amended. This is something that should be addressed transparently in the next round of benchmarking.

 

[MOB]

I love the free market.
Rainyday's comment that he took a 30% pay cut to join the public sector is illuminating: it occurs to me that those people who join the public sector from the private sector offer a relatively objective way of measuring the differential which should exist between public and private sector pay.

We could argue all day about the relative benefits of public and private sector, but the actual decisions made by employees moving from one to the other (and in fairness, you would have to measure it in both directions) would in theory give us the 'free market' valuation of this differential. I am assuming that there is enough movement between the two sectors to give a statistically defensible finding.

It may be that Rainyday's choice is atypical, and that on average there is no differential, or that the average differential is much less than 30%. But the point is, a study of these figures would be free of the sort of bias which I have absolutely no doubt permeates the so-called 'benchmarking' studies which have been used in wage claims to date.

 

[oopsbuddy]

The solution then is to give pay increases to experienced nurses at more senior grades rather than across the board payrises for all nurses.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the starting salary for a newly graduated nurse is excellent and if the scale after that is too flat then it should be amended. This is something that should be addressed transparently in the next round of benchmarking.

A very reasonable suggestion Polaris. I fully accept that there has to be some give and take, and this is an imaginative suggestion on how to overcome the impasse, and promote a longer term improvement. However I nearly choked laughing at Purple's commendation of Mary Harney for her "courageous" stance against the nurses, who appear to be not only the enemies of the health service, and to blame for all its woes, but who are at risk of bringing down this house of cards of an economy of ours with their unreasonable demands for decent pay and similar hours to their colleagues. The perception of them "bullying" the public is equally laughable - they are trying to exercise some industrial relations muscle in order to get what they should have had years ago, but all the time causing minimum disruption to the public. They are trying to exercise some leverage over their employers, who have had over a quarter of a century to give some real commitment to the issue of working hours. The HSEs latest threat to dock their pay by 13% if they do not call off their work-to-rule action is the most blatantly ham-fisted, heavy-handed and short sighted way of moving the issue forward. Who's the bully there? I await developments with interest, but I don't think it's going to be good.

 

[Purple]

I nearly choked laughing at Purple's commendation of Mary Harney for her "courageous" stance against the nurses, who appear to be not only the enemies of the health service, and to blame for all its woes, but who are at risk of bringing down this house of cards of an economy of ours with their unreasonable demands for decent pay and similar hours to their colleagues. The perception of them "bullying" the public is equally laughable - they are trying to exercise some industrial relations muscle in order to get what they should have had years ago, but all the time causing minimum disruption to the public. They are trying to exercise some leverage over their employers, who have had over a quarter of a century to give some real commitment to the issue of working hours. The HSEs latest threat to dock their pay by 13% if they do not call off their work-to-rule action is the most blatantly ham-fisted, heavy-handed and short sighted way of moving the issue forward. Who's the bully there? I await developments with interest, but I don't think it's going to be good.

Thanks opsbuddy, the next time I need something I write interpreted I will give you a shout. I would love to live in your world where after years of pay increases well in excess of inflation a claim for a 25% hourly rate increase is reasonable and simply a demand for “reasonable pay”. Wherever you are I hope the sun keeps shining.
At no time have I defended the HSE and their role in this. They have offered weak management and have indeed been ham-fisted but they are too inept to be considered bullies.
If you choose to ignore the knock-on effect that a huge pay increase to one section of the public sector will have on other public sector and civil service pay demands that’s your business. Please do not ask others to assess the situation with the same level of economic illiteracy. It is the government’s job to assess situations like this in the context of what is good for the country and I again commend Mary Harney for having the courage to do just that.